Here is part one the begining

Thanks Eddie...

Thank you to everyone keeping this civil and respecting everyones views and beliefs

There is nothing un-natural about neutering.. the humane society puts out a very good article called, " if you thought teaching your children about sex was hard, try teaching your pet". They address these exact myths of nutering/spaying animals.. I highly reccomend it.
We have had 130 male rescues neutered and have not had any problems although there is always a risk to any surgery, for animals or people. An experienced vet should should be able to give you wonderful advice on post neutering care, as well as to inform you of the proceeduce and all that goes with it.

the amount of risk associated with nuetered seems to be the SAME amount of risk of just keeping them in general.. the chances of your glider dying from something related to a neuter, could be the same as your glider getting kidney or liver failure from supplimenting..

Really, homing intact males together, especially in colonies is DIFFICULT.. It definitely can be done, but not all the time,a nd not with every glider..

So here is a serious question that i would like you to answer..

What do you do with a male who is extremely dominant and can and will kill another intact male if given the chance. Do you put him with a female and let him breed regardless of his dominance issues and lack of known lineage?

Since this was at the end, I didn't want it to get lost, so I'm reposting:

Then what do you do with all the male gliders? Female pairings are fine most of the time, but male pairings are not as likely.

that was basically my question too.. i mean, some males can be paired together, but what about all of the alpha males?

Exactly. Would you force these males to live as lone gliders? Then they could become depressed, sick, and even die.

I had a situation with Linus and Rocket.

They've been cage-mates and best buddies since Rocket was about 4 months old, Linus is about 1 month younger? I forget exactly. They always sleep in the same pouch, they groom each other, they look out for each other. Good buddies.

Rocket has been neutered for months.

Just last week, Linus tried to rape Rocket. He got over-agitated since Stella Luna - in the next cage - was in heat. Poor Rocket was completely bewildered.

They ended up balling up and fighting. I'm glad neither was hurt.

Fortunately, I was able to resolve the situation, and now I have a colony of 4. They are living together very well now.

This was unexpected to me. These guys have been together quite a while. So - situations happen.

its just not feesable to NEVER neuter a glider... especially if you have more than one pair, or a colony.. they just will not live happily if their horomones are raging and theres nothing they can do about it..

ESpecially if there is a colony of females putting of HEAT signals from across the room

I recently had to split up two boys, Scooter is neutered, slevin is not. Slevin is being dominate and was attempting to rape Scooter, they will be seperated until Slevin is neutered( except for playtime).....

Obviously I dont agree with the anti neutering, but I do respect others opinions. I am curious about the others questions...from your signature it appears you have a few gliders (hellosugar) are any of them male? If so how are they paired up? If they are with females, what will you do if they keep rejecting joeys? he causes damage to her? are you willing to seperate a bonded pair causing emotional trauma/stress to them?......again just curiosity

First, I don't feel that I have to defend myself to anyone here because of my stance on neutering. This is my opinion, and everyone else is entitled to their own.

My gliders area healthy, happy, and extremely well cared for. I will always provide the best for them and do what is in their best interest.

I don't have to, nor do I feel compelled to explain myself, but if everyone must know, I have one male who is paired with a female, the rest are in a female only group. If/when the M/F pair have joeys, I am more than well prepared (having close to 5 years experience with gliders, having done countless hours of reading/research, and being an extremely intelligent person). I have MORE than enough potential homes for the joeys (that is, if I don't keep them myself).

To answer the rest of the scrutinizing questions, if the parents reject the joeys then they should not be breeding and I will not keep them in a breeding situation. The female would be introduced to the all female group, and I would have to find a suitable male buddy for the male (and yes, it CAN and HAS been done, it's just a long drawn out process, but far from impossible).

In my opinion, providing them with new, yet more suitable cagemates is more humane than what I consider to be mutilation. They WILL bond with new companions, and WILL be just as happy as before.

The same goes for if the male was to hurt the female. I would obviously separate ANY two gliders from hurting one another.

I am not the only one with this sentiment. I know first hand of one of the large scale breeders on this forum who has been praised and recommended over and over again, who doesn't nueter her males (most likely because they are one of the less common colors) even if they are having joey/partner problems. She seperates the pair and repairs them.

If you don't agree, you don't have to.

As I stated earlier, my gliders are healthy and happy. And I don't have to snip my male in order to acheive this!

I also don't have to defend myself or my opinions, and I don't have to *prove* to anyone that I'm doing what's right for my gliders. Rest assured, they get outstanding care, and their quality of life is superb!

I won't scrutinize anyone who chooses to slice and dice their pets. Likewise, don't concern yourself with the fact that I don't have to take the same path as you in order to keep my pets in good health and spirit.

I'm discontinuing my participation in this discussion because it's no longer an informative exchange of opinions/points of views, and I no longer care be involved. I'm off to more jovial topics!

No one was scrutinizing you, I stated before and after my questions that i respect your opinion and was curious of how the problems were solved in your case, as in better educating myself on your stance. I meant no disrespect, nor offence, just curiosity to your way of thinking. I am sorry if I offended you, but i dont feel i(or anyone else) did/said anything scrutinizing or hurtful.

I just cant see how a person can justify breaking up a bonded pair and rehoming them with other gliders and causing more stress to an already stressful situation that might be going on with the pair, when neutering can keep gliders together and cause less stress to them in the long run. I dont understand how "bouncing" them around to find just the right "blend" of gliders and all the introducing stress can be better than just keeping them together in the first place? Just my opinion. I would go with the neuter any day to keep gliders together.

Sherri, I agree. Cobalt was neutered on a Tues and 2 wks later was introed to Tiki. Neither of them messed with his neuter site.

I believe wholeheartedly that there is more of a chance of loosing a glider to an innocent accident of some type than something happening because of neutering.
I have 9 males, 8 of which are snipped and havent had any issues because of it either. My other boy will be going in to get snipped when he is old enough.

I agree, Newby - but HelloSugar's point of view is really based on other things, not just safety.

Personally, I can NOT imagine a world where animals were not neutered and spayed. However, obviously HelloSugar works around that.

Neutering a male makes it much more likely that he is going to be in a quality situation. He is less likely to fight with other gliders, less likely to end up alone.

While some people are equipped to have a intact male/female pair that reguarly produce joeys, gliders can produce a LOT of joeys in a year, and many people cannot spare the time/money/energy to give so many gliders the attention they need, and then all of the gliders in that situation suffer if the owner becomes overwhelmed.

Yes, sometimes you can find an intact male that will get along with another male...but this is the exception, not the rule. There are already a large number of gliders out there who need homes, and if many of those gliders were intact males, it compounds the problems of introductions and finding them appropriate homes.

While there have been no studies in gliders, many studies have shown that neutering is very beneficial to the health of pets. Not only do they make "better pets" because they are less likely to fight, mark, etc; they are also less likely to develop various forms of cancer due to the hormonal changes neutering causes.

I think especially since gliders are so territorial, neutering is a particularly important option for them. There would be many males stuck in a tough spot if we wouldn't/couldn't neuter them.

Despite hearing stories of a few gliders who didn't make it after neutering, I got my male neutered before he came home. It was a year before he stopped trying to rape the female and they stopped fighting. He was already aggressive enough for the first year despite being neutered, and is just now starting to calm down and be a great pet.

Clearly, for some reason, Kirby was just an aggressive guy, and I honestly think if he wasn't neutered, I would have had to permanently keep him as a single glider in his own cage because his aggression would have made him unsafe to be with other gliders. I don't think rehoming him would have helped either because he was just out of control. What kind of life would that have been for him living by himself? Not a very happy one. Nor would my female have been happy if I let him continue to attempt to rape her.

Neutering has made a huge difference in improving the quality of life for my glider. He is now able to live with my female, and he seems much happier. He didn't even seem particularly depressed before, but I can tell now that he is happier than he was before.

If you will allow me to be crass for a minute, he is never going to miss his little pom poms, and in terms of his spirit and dignity, I think him being able to live and play each day with his girlfriend allows him much more spirit, dignity, and wholeness than if he had to live life by himself in his own little cage.

I'm sorry HelloSugar but I totally and completely and I'm going to try to respectfully disagree with you.

This upsets me:

"I would have to find a suitable male buddy for the male (and yes, it CAN and HAS been done, it's just a long drawn out process, but far from impossible).

In my opinion, providing them with new, yet more suitable cagemates is more humane than what I consider to be mutilation. They WILL bond with new companions, and WILL be just as happy as before. "

So what happens when the first male buddy get for your male doesn't work out? And the second? And the third? What are you goind to do with all of those male gliders?

I find it VERY offensive that you refer to neutering as "slice and dice". That's hardly what it is. Maybe you should watch a vet do a neuter so that you'll have a better understanding of the procedure.

You make it seem like neutering is some awful thing to put gliders though, and that it's unnatural. What's unnatural is keeping a male from a female glider; in the wild they live in colonies of SEVERAL females. How do you explain the separation and still try to claim keeping things "natural".

I find your argument to be lacking in substantiated information. I'm sure if statistics where drawn up, you'd see the actual chance of your glider having complications during the procedure are really low. Your glider is probably going to have a greater chance of getting hurt in a car accident or something.

Here is the substantiated information you request regarding spay/neuter. This study was done on spay/neuter in dogs, and until it is scientifically proven that gliders in no way whatsoever have the potential to suffer similar effects due to spay/neuter, we can conclude that it IS in fact entirely possible.

Most intersting is the concluding paragraph:
"An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm
health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter
correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do
not yet understand about this subject."


And even MORE notable (on page 2):
"One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and
contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet
Page 3 of 12
owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits
associated of spay/neuter in dogs."

And to reinforce my point:
"The number of health problems associated
with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases."

Further reinforcement:
"the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear
to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically
mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary."


I know I said I was done with this topic, but because my intelligence is being insulted, I decided to make one LAST post. Here it is. Any future comments/questions/insults within this thread will be ignored, period.

On a final note regarding the neuter topic, I find it amusing that so many claim to know so much, and preach their opinions as though they were experts about medical topics.

SIMILARLY, there was once a time in our history (up until 1967 I believe) that the medical field believed that frontal lobotomy was beneficial in treating psychological illness. Frontal lobotomy involved the insertion of ice picks into the eye sockets and piercing through the bone into the frontal lobe of the brain, then moving the ice picks around to damage that part of the brain. The procedure actually WORKED on some people, making them less violent. It also left many adults with the minds of 5 year olds, in vegetative states, and dead. But at one time, we thought that this voluntary brain damage was beneficial. (You can read more about frontol lobotomy here if you are so inclined: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014080)

Similarly, we used to torture people to death whom we actually believed were witches during the Salem witch trial.

My point being, people are imperfect and fallable. What is at one time a very POPULAR belief considered medically beneficial can in the future be proven to be detrimental.

I prefer not to interfere with the biology of living beings when it isn't absolutely and positively necessary. That's my opinion. Don't insult it, as I don't insult yours.

Here is the artical:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I'm now done with this topic. Nobody is trying to "understand" anything like you so claim, but rather, attacking my opinion.

Frankly, I am doing NO dis-service to gliders or this community by personally choosing to leave the living creatures that I care for unaltered.

You people will argue anything to the end, regardless of what information is presented to you. In fact, even while being presented with hardcore scientific evidence, you've still got people here who will say "I don't see any problem". It won't even spark a thought of "hmmm, perhaps I don't actually know everything".

I come to this forum to learn (because I have an *open* mind), but honestly I see some really, how shall I say, interesting things going on. For example, one of the "proven diets" is supposed to be used with tofu, and in the same forum, a sticky warns of the danger of soy (and if you didn't know, tofu is nothing more than soybean curd). Similarly one topic will say that dried milk is BAD for gliders because it contains lactose, while if you look on some of the products made for gliders (such as brisky's glider nectar for example) one of it's main ingredients is dried milk. Not to mention the fact that yogurt (which SO many recommend giving to their gliders) contains lactose. It's like everyone is contradicting themselves. I happen to sometimes notice these small details and bring it to light, and and then rather than provoking intelligent thought, people will make things up, like "well lactose in yogurt is okay because blah blah bla while lactose in powdered milk is NOT okay because of whatever. It's still lactose either way. People actually make things up out of thin air just for the sake of being "right". Then you've got the people preaching that you shouldn't let your personal pet breed, while nobody addresses the fact that everyone PRAISES some people from this very board who breed ridiculously high quantities of gliders.

I enjoy coming here to these forums and I believe it's probably one of the most valuable resources a glider owner could have, but there are a lot of "holier than thou" people here who could stand to relax a little.

Again, I refuse to take further participation in this topic and all future posts will be ignored.

I don't get why you are calling it a slice and dice or mutilation. I just saw a neuter this past weekend (pictures at the SGGA). A SMALL incision is made, the testes taken out, and each tied, then placed back in. The incision generally doesn't need stitches or glue.
Breeding, and continued breeding, contributes to a growing problem. Yes, you may have many homes lined up, but what about them? And the people they send their joeys to? And so on? I believe the SRR has stats that ONE male and his offspring can produce X number of joeys in a year (I can't find it at the moment, hopefully someone has it linked somewhere...)

What about pet homes? We should only have same sex pairings because we choose not to breed and shouldn't neuter? What about rescues? Surely those should be neutered. Inbred gliders? Gliders who've had health issues? Pet store glider? Unknown lineage? Same sex pairings aren't always feasible. Sometimes rescues get a colony living happily. Instead they should be split up to prevent further breeding?
To not neuter or spay animals would be grossly irresponsible. The "pet" population is out of control. Nothing about having a pet is natural. Nothing about keeping a glider under ideal conditions to breed year round is natural. These animals are having MORE babies per year than natural. And you can't say that having offspring isn't a health risk.

HelloSugar- No one was questioning your intelligence. We are trying to understand your position on neutering and how different situations could be corrected/prevented in your case. If you truly feel that others shouldn't neuter, you should be willing to provide advice on how to correct those problems. Also, I didn't see anything that was at all offensive. I just people asking questions or disagreeing with you. To me, neither is offensive. You said that we mutilate our animals. To me that is offensive, but I didn't say anything about it. That is your opinion and you have a right to it. Are we not allowed to have opinions as well?

Also, I know you said you would not be replying from here on out in this thread, but I have another question. Would you allow a surgical treatment for a health issue, or would you also consider that to be mutilation? It seems that if you are concerned with playing God that you would also advocate natural treatments and no surgery for medical reasons either. This is just my own inferrence based on what you've posted thus far, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Again, this is not mean to offend or attack you, but to get more information about your stance.

Gina-I posted that on part 1 of this topic. I'll go back and find it and repost it.

1 male glider lets say he has 4 babies a year look what happens in lets say just 5 yrs of breeding

1x4= 4 add babies and dad 4+1= 5 at end of yr 1 (5)
5x4= 20 add babies and dads 20+5=25 at end of yr 2 (25)
25x4= 100 add babies and dads 100+25=125 at end of yr 3 (125)
125x4= 500 add babies and dads 500+125=625 at end of yr 4 (625)
625x4=2500 add babies and dads 2500+625=3125 at end of yr 5 (3125)

*Thanks to Cyndiekb for that info*

The study did not include the effect on behavior or population control..both are pluses. I believe that most vets would tell you that more research would have to be done and on a much larger scale. Honestly, those risks are there anyway and to not neuter with the millions and millons of cats and dogs being put to death each year is very irresponsible. Also, with us being resuers we see the wonderful results of neutering every day. Gliders can be placed into homes where they will be pampered pets, males are less agressive, females seem to be happier and less stressed. Owners are pleased these is less odor and need to mark, ect. We are also looking at a future of non-surgical sterialization for many animals.

There are groups whose main mission it to not encourage the neutering of pets, they call it mutilation, cruel, ect. Its hard for me to believe but there are. (To me its more cruel to let aniamls multiply only to be euthanized later) These groups don't deal with the issue of animal control or have answers to the problems at hand. A trip to a local kill shelter speaks very loudly to most people.

Here is some information on spay/neuter and the estimation on over population:

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affectin...population.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/why_you_should_spay_or_neuter_your_pet.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/myths_and_facts_about_spaying_and_neutering.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affectin..._estimates.html

Neutering of male gliders to me is essential for non breeding gliders. The benefits are so vast that I just do not understand the reasoning behind NOT neutering.

It reduces the risk of some cancers.
It reduces the risk of self mutilation.
It reduces the risk of continuted self mutilation.
It reduces the risk of mating wounds.
It stops the production of more joeys.
It allows family members to remain together without inbreeding.
It reduces the scent odors.
It reduces agression.
It allows male/male pairs to live together peacefully.

And with all my males I have here that ARE neutered, I see NO negative effects of neutering.

My Dexter is over 12 years old and is neutered. He has NEVER been sick. Never had a UTI, never caused a mating wound, never self mutilated, is not inbreeding with his offspring (so they ARE able to be a colony). Dixie is healthier now that she isn't constantly trying to feed herself and her joeys.

My Reep looks fabulous now. Pre neuter he was so stressed each time they had joeys that he went almost completely body bald. He looked like a rat with mange. Now, 2 years post neuter, he is healthy and fully furred. He is very happy living with his mate and doesn't have to have his children taken away from him. Azalea is healthier now.

My Maui, was very agressive pre neuter. Now he is a cuddle bug. McKenna is healthier now.

My Sebastian and Whisper can be together because Sebastian doesn't inflict mating wounds now.

My Billy and Sam are able to live together (father and son) without hormonal agression towards each other.

Littleman and Valentino (father and son) are also able to be together without fighting. Both of them are to agressive to be with females. If intact, they would have to live as lone gliders without someone to snuggle with and call their own.

All the rescues that have come through here have been neutered as well so that they could go to loving pet only homes where they are treasured for just who they are and not what they might produce.

I've been reading this thread and trying to come up with negatives to neutering. 28 neuters to date and I have not seen ONE negative to neutering. With the exception of immediate post neuter self mutilation, WHICH can be prevented with proper care (pain meds and ecollars), I just can not find a single negative to neutering gliders.

I absolutely will not compare neutering gliders to neutering dogs (all my dogs are neutered too) simply because they are two very different species of animals and their physiology is so completely different it would be like comparing apples to bricks.

Spaying of female gliders is not recommended but can and has been done. In some cases, it is even medically necessary to save the life of the glider. Because it is so invasive compared to neutering males, it is not recommended and I personally would NEVER spay just as a form of birth control with gliders (my female dogs are spayed).

I have human friends that have had sterilization surgeries and they do not consider themselves "mutilated". I myself have had such surgery. For me, it saved my life and removed the cancer (ovarian cancer that is 90% fatal) that would have stopped me from seeing my children grow up and from seeing my grandchildren. I do not feel mutilated at all. I feel blessed that I could have that surgery.

I understand this,BUT....A new person is normally only going to have one,maybe 2 gliders(males I mean)..A larger breeder has more than 1 or 2,so therfore,aren't their numbers adding way more than the "average" person??

That may better explain the figures I posted.

I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say though.

Ok, so a mega breeder with 500 male gliders is going to produce 1,562,500 male offspring in 5 years not counting the females ASSUMING all males are left intact and breeding.

That is a very staggering number of gliders. We do need to shut the "mega breeders" down but that is only part of the problem. The hobby breeders are also producing the same numbers per male.

OK, lets say...

One hobby breeder has 5 producing intact males. In 5 years, with the offspring, that is still 15,625 joeys not counting the female joeys. Does ANYONE here know of 15,625 homes for these gliders? And lets not forget that many "breeders" rehome their retired breeding gliders so we need homes for them too. All the while trying to help the rescues from the mega breeders. It is all so over whelming when you are living with the fall out from the impulse buys and those that see animals as disposable "items".

Also, those numbers are very low to start with. My own Marcell has produced 8 joeys in just over a year, 5 of those are males. (he is getting neutered asap) Out of those, three will be or are breeding. One is going to get ONE set of joeys and get neutered along with any male offspring. The other two are with who I consider very responsible "hobby" breeders who are prepared to keep each and every joey born. One is getting neutered and staying with his parents. But there are also his female joeys.

The joeys born have to either stay or go to a new home.. if they are male and not neutered or female and put with an intact male they will breed. Each of these gliders adds to the population as well as thier offspring, many who end up in rescues. Thankfully, rescuers (most of them) do netuer and put a stop to the cycle and help decrease future gliders needing rescue.
Recently I heard from someone who rescued some gliders, that were so inbreed, from someone who wouldn't netuer that 2 of them had 2 tails. The tail started as one at the base and then forked into 2 tails. This is what happens, deformaties and genetic issues due to inbreeding. Thankfully, the cycle they were in has been stopped.
We took in once cage of 7, was to be 9 but they stopped and traded 2 for supplies at the feed store on the way here. Those gliders were all from the original 2, they were inbreeding and had one baby who had a heart problem and didn't survive. They ran out of friends to give them to, and couldn't sell them, but didn't want to pay to have the males neutered. Another case... a pet store started out with 5 gliders, a year later they had 30+, inbreeding, some with deformaties before asking us for help.
We are now taking in gliders from kill shelters, this is a sure sign of a big problem and one that makes me very sad.

out of just morbid curiosity, I would like to see pics of those.

HelloSugar-
I realize you aren't posting anymore.

However, your last post really disappointed me. No one was being offensive, and yet you took offense. I saw no one criticize your position- only question it, and state their own positions. If your theories can not stand up to questioning, then what good are they?

I already said that I disagree, but respect your opinions.

Your attitude in your last post has me very puzzled. Instead of sounding intelligent, you sounded very defensive. No one questioned your intelligence, nor your ability to care for your pets. Rather *how* you care for your pets in various circumstances was questioned. You had an opportunity to educate us on your beliefs.

I am SO deeply against pet over-population that it is not just unlikely, but impossible, that I would ever endorse an anti-neutering stance. To me the statistics and evidence which support neutering FAR out-weigh the negative effects.

I've lived with pets my whole life, and have never had a pet who wasn't spayed or neutered. (with the exception of my female gliders). I had a cat who died at the age of 19, and I currently have a 15 year old cat and a 13 year old cat. My dog, who was a large breed, with a normal life expectancy of around 9-11 years, lived to be 16. He was never sick ONE DAY of his life.

So - I just agree with those who have stated that more good can come out of neutering than bad.

I am not AGAINST the breeding of sugar gliders - or any other animal. This post was not started to say they should never be bred.

I am against over-population and indiscriminate breeding.

I also want to add from first hand experience...

The dynamics of even established colonies often change drastically, especially colonies with intact males. While this can happen even in neutered colonies, it seems to happen much more frequent with intact colonies.

Fighting for the alpha role happens and in the wild, the "loser" of this alpha war will just move out and onto either another colony or to establish his own. In a cage, they don't have the choice to just move out and these fights can lead to severe injury or more often death without our intervention.

Neutering, and the lowered hormones, reduces the risk of this type of alpha war taking place.

lol..She understood what I was tryin to say..lol..
I have 4 girls,so neutering is not an issue with me thankfully..
I think it would be a decent idea for the "mega breeders" to sell their older joeys(the ones they don't sell as a baby)at a lower price after being neutered..I know,I know,never gonna happen..lol...it's just wishful thinking...lol

My personal opinion on people that do not want to neuter is that they dont want to take the time or the money to have thier male's neutered. It is easier just to ignore it. Especially if they have more than one male.

On the same note, I still believe that it is everyone's personal right to decide whether they are cabaple and willing to take on the "RESPONSABILITY" That comes with breeding.

I say "responsability", because that is what it all boils down to. The actions that the breeder takes are what decides whether there will be overpopulation of that colony, or inbreeding. And in making sure to screen homes extremly well, before letting thier gliders go.

I decided to edit this out because it was kind long and it was a point made that I am sure everyone already knows. ^_^

*hugs*

I have also seen this firsthand...especially if there are females nearby. I haven't seen any problems come from neutering...gliders or my other animals...and my belief is that it's the most responsible course of action. People's lives change...sometime drastically and usually without warning. Even if you are willing to take the responsibility of "natural" breeding, what if you had to suddenly rehome your gliders? Unless you know a glider's history you shouldn't allow it to breed. There is so much unknown about gliders and you can't compare them to any other species. I've got some gliders that came in as rescues who are now permanent members of my family because of the chronic health problems most likely caused by inbreeding. We all feel passionately about issues concerning our gliders. We all want to provide the best life we can to our gliders. And we all want to learn to benefit tomorrow's gliders. Having discussions is one way to do that. There is not much published and timely information about gliders and experience is perhaps our best teacher. I don't take offense at anyone questioning how I care for my gliders because I do everything w/their best interests in mind. Does that mean there may not be a better or different way to care for them? Absolutely not! I am always willing to listen to suggestions even if I don't act on them. I've found GC to be a great place to express opinions and share thoughts and experiences. No one tries to intentionally upset anyone else...we all respect other views...so there's no reason for anyone to be insulted here.

My thoughts exactly ! Very well said Val !

The day we are put out of business by responsible breeders who make sure that each and every animal they sell, plus its offspring don't end up in rescue, shelters or pounds will be the happiest day of my life!
Until then all we can do is educate people and yes some will not like to hear what we know, see and touch every day... the very gliders we take in. No one is trying to be mean or hurt someone's feelings.

I got my Fizzgig because someone was going to "release him into the wild" I knew nothing. I was going to build him a galvanized steel cage. Thank God I found GC. Fizzgig is 4 he lived on parrot food and fruit. His fur was dull. Very cute!! I had him eating out of my hand before I had him a month. He was intact. Then by chance at my local pet store I got Dart a neuted male. After the month of quarrantine. I tried cages near each other. MY sweet bonded Fizz was soo mean when he saw DArt! (I had wanted to be a breeded Gliders go for fairly decent money arond here.) Please go read about Angieh's Hope for Gliders it will open your eyes to all the horror these little guys go through.
Anyhow! SRR paid for Fizz to be neutered! HE still looks intact and 3 weeks later my boys are totally happy! It wasn't until THey were put in the same cage that Fizzgig looked like he had healthy fur! It is truly amazing!

Quality of life is an important consideration when we keep captive animals.

Neutering improves the quality of life for male gliders maintained in a captive environment. It also improves the pet potential for many male gliders which directly corresponds to their ability to stay in a home or to be successfully rehomed.

The anti-neutering philosophy used to be a popular one but is becoming less and less common.

This is kind of provacative because most of us are owners of captive gliders as pets and therefore the ethical boundries between how they get along in the wild versus in captivity is a train that's already left the station.

We have 'em so it stands to reason that we should do what we can to reduce unnecessary death and suffering as much as possible. Neutering has a role in that reduction of unnecessary death and suffering because unchecked breeding - whether in the home or not - has a profound effect on the increase in rescues. I don't know the number, but I'll guess that for every successful rescue, there is probably 3 or more that are "let go," die or are foisted on a bad or worse owner than the one who put it in a rescue state.

On a personal level, this comes down to some hard choices. Like, do you have the time, energy and conviction to encourage more births amongst your own gliders? And does your lifestyle support that committment? We have selectively neutered some of the males in our small colonies and I can tell you it does help to keep things harmonious. We won't have more than one alpha/intact male (of breeding age) in any one colony.

Just jumping in with my little personal anecdote here..

I had only ever heard about gliders until I came to college and met my first roommate, who owned a glider herself. I was toootally smitten, and after six months of researching and saving, I bought my first little girls, Kinta and Tillie, both from relatively small-scale hobby breeders.

I'm the type of person who LOVES research and learning - seriously, I'm a big geek. Once I found my passion for gliders, I read everything I could get my hands on. I even checked out scientific articles from my University's library and learned all about seasonal variations in the diet of wild gliders and their totally crazy reproductive systems!

After about a year of having my girls, I decided to grow my little colony. I had owned my gliders for a year before deciding to breed.. I still think that I made the right decision. I bought my male gliders from Priscilla so I could be sure of their lineage the same way I was sure of Kinta and Tillie's lineage. Unfortunately, my personal life took a horrible turn for the worse and I had to sell my gliders, but I made sure that they went to absolutely amazing homes and I still keep in touch.

I will never be more than a hobbyist, because I'm young, still in school (grad student, woo!) and have lots of living to do - I don't have time for 20+ pairs of gliders, but I totally understand that some people do! For me, one or two pairs or a small colony will always be enough.

I'm finally ready to get back into gliders and yes, I do plan to have a little colony again. I'm building a 6'+ cage to house my gliders, and they'll have a constant supply of toys from my local mom-and-pop pet store.

So yeah. That's my bit

Bex, at least you have a good source for toys. With all the research you've done - you know you're gonna need em!!!

Oh man, I love spoiling my gliders.. my local pet store has the CRAZIEST toys in their (huge) bird section.

Another thing I love about this store: It's an exotic pet store, yes, but totally built on a foundation of public education. As a former employee (who got her degree and had to go get a real job, sniffle), I can vouch for the staff there. We STUDY for our jobs. We do NOT sell gliders, because we don't feel that they can be adequately or humanely kept in a bustling pet store, nor do we feel that we have enough customers capable of caring for them to justify carrying them.

I've already picked out over $100 worth of toys for my gliders.. which I don't even have yet. D'oh! I have a separate fridge for all their yumyums and the place I've picked out for their cage looks so very empty...!

Wow what a breath of fresh air that is to hear... A commercial enterprise that refuses to sell gliders cuz the staff knows how spcial they are... wow!!!!!!!

That sure beats the alleged animal killers in this town who are being investigated for burning down their pet store - with animals in it - for the insurance money....

I went in that place 6 months ago and almost gagged at the conditions. We were about to report the place and then it burned... My vet told us about the investigation....

Sorry, back on a high note it sounds like you have some nice friends and it is so cool to hear about the education aspect... [may not reply till much later - going out]

Bex, I'm betting that's Preuss's? I just moved here from E.L.

Anywho, while that article does point out some downsides of neutering, I still feel very strongly that the main benefits of neutering--preventing a population explosion and allowing males to be better pets and more likely to find good homes--far outweigh the disadvantages.

That article concerns me somewhat as I couldn't tell what journal it was published in or if it was peer reviewed. Even if it was and all those complications were legit, I still think neutering is very necessary for the greater good...otherwise we would have an explosion of homeless gliders who would be suffering.

Yep, Preuss'. The store does have its downsides, I'm not gonna lie, but they mean well. I think whenever animals are combined with business, someone loses. Preuss is always struggling to balance profit and good business with ethical and knowledgeable animal husbandry.

Anyhoo. BUMMER that you moved away before I got to know you. Who wants to live in Seattle, anyway?

Well as far as neutering goes.... My local "humane" Society destroys 50% of the dogs and 75% of the cats that come to it.
The only place to send a glider is to a my local pet shop which isn't that great as far as gliders go.

There is already an explosion of gliders that are suffering. I am located in the midwest and Shelleriddle just rescued a little girl on Friday that came to her in a sock full of sawdust. Miss Sydney is now staying with me while she gets healthy & social and ready for a new forever home. When I contacted the original breeder of this girl today to try to get age & background info on her, the breeder told me she wanted to get rid of all the gliders she has cuz she isn't a night person & they breed like rabbits and nobody around her wants them. I will be taking in the entire family of 7 until the males are neutered and permanent homes are found through all4gliders. She isn't even sure how many boys there are in the cage but mom and dad are less then 2 years old, have had 8 babies so far and they could be more on the way not only from mom, but from any of the older girls in the cage.

TracyLynn I call it "God's work" you are doing. Bless you.

My thought on this whole thread is... energy needs to be spent on contacting All of the mill breeders and persuading them to Neuter all of their baby males before they go to their new homes.

mill breeders sell Thousands of baby gliders yearly. So take your formula and multiply just as to how many unwanted babies they produce.

Hobby breeders are only a small fraction of the problem. May want to contact those too to see as to how many of them have their offspring Neutered before the little ones go out the door.

Judie, the problem there is the "mills" don't care about the health and well being of the gliders and you end up those like Mike who will take a pocket knife to the little boys.

I really think the only way to shut down the mills is to get the laws changed to where the minimum standards of care (cage size etc) make it either to unprofitable or to much of a pain for them to continue what they are doing.

That's one of my concerns also, Teresa. If you "make" a mill breeder neuter all the males that leave - well, I've heard too many horror stories of HOW mill breeders neuter.

I'd much rather work towards just shutting them down, or regulating them more strongly.

It isn't even Hobby breeders who were the topic of the original thread.

More, it is people who have just discovered gliders for the first time and decide right away they want to breed. Mills are their own problem. But the concern expressed was for impulse breeding by new glider owners.

Impulse breeding is how I am ending up with the group I am getting. The gal got a pair from a pet store, thought it would be cool to have a baby and now there are 8 needing homes. She had no clue how quickly they breed, or the time & effort involved in glider ownership, she just put them in a cage together & let them go at it. - She doesn't even know how to tell males from females until they get a bald spot and since they are not tame, she has never even bothered to look. The new wore off & she doesn't want to put forth the effort needed.

As a hobby breeder no I don't send my boys out the door neutered. I think I consider my babies personalities just as special as you do your pretty colored gliders. Most of my males have gone home and been neutered but like you Judie, I leave that up to the person buying my babies. Thinking any mill breeder will neuter ?

bump

How the heck did I miss all this??? Thanks Meg's for posting the joey numbers. If that doesn't say it all then what does?

Do I breed? Yes, small hobby breeder. I have neutered and given away my last 5 joeys. Didn't matter they were 100% het for white or WFB's. Males get fixed. I am going to neuter the one male joey I have here (the first of mine I have ever got to keep ) I am also looking in to fixing my 100% het pair and a new lue pair.

Please love your gliders enough to neuter!

PS: also take the time to read some of the stories sent to the SRR after neuters were done. The link is in my siggy.