I just read your post, and I cried to the last post....I am so sorry for your loss...My heart and prays go out to you...

Oh, Tonia! I knew better than to look in this site and expect good news. And yet, as I read your initial postings, I had such high hopes for another success story. I feel the fracture of your heart and tragic loss. I pray you find answers and closure.

Here are the results of Takara and her unborn joey's pathology/necropsy

HISTORY: This 6-month-old, female, captive bred sugar glider had no prior history of illness and was found on the bottom of the cage with generalized muscle fasciculations and weakness. The patient did not respond to glucose, calcium, or ampicillin and died several hours later. A cagemate presented with the same signs several hours later. The owner has six more sugar gliders in other cages that have no signs at this time.

CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS: Toxin or a bacterial infection.
GROSS: Received in formalin are six tissues to 4 em. in greatest dimension that are processed in one block.

DIAGNOSIS:
1. Acute congestion and edema, lung.
2. Acute mild vacuolar change, liver.
3. Acute congestion, spleen.
4. No pathologic diagnosis, stomach, intestine, heart, pancreas, adipose, trachea.

COMMENT: Histologic changes are consistent with acute shock but are otherwise not specific. There is no
evidence of an infectious process, and this animal was in good nutritional status at the time of death. I concur that this sugar glider may have been exposed to a toxin that resulted in systemic shock. If additional animals from this facility develop similar clinical signs and die, you may want to consider submitting a comprehensive set of tissues that includes brain and kidney. It is interesting to note that we have other sugar gliders on file with a similar history and paucity of histologic changes, and I suspect that this species may be somewhat sensitive to toxic effects of various household agents or certain foods. Evaluation of the history is recommended in this regard.
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HISTORY: This fetus is from a sugar glider that died with clinical signs suspicious of toxicosis.

CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS: Open.

GROSS: Received in formalin is one fetus to 1.5 em. in greatest dimension that is processed whole in one block.

MICROSCOPIC: Lung: The pulmonary parenchyma is congested. The following tissues are histologically within normal limits with the exception of autolysis: skin, musculoskeletal system, central nervous system, heart, liver, spleen, kidney, and alimentary tract.

DIAGNOSIS: Acute pulmonary congestion.

COMMENT: Histologic changes are consistent with acute pulmonary shock but are otherwise not
specific. I suspect this fetus died from complications associated with metabolic derangements in the dam.
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I find it interesting that when the vet called me about Takara's results she only stated the toxins... when it clearly states it could have also been a bacterial infection, which is what I am leaning towards more. She had a bacterial infection before I received her but was cleared before she was shipped. My vet also cleared her but I was told this can not really be cleared but just dormant........

It seems much more unlikely there would've been something in the air or something in their food... seeing as how 10 other gliders in the same room were unaffected after living in the same conditions and having the EXACT same diet day after day. I also find it hard to believe to blame it on these b/c their genes are more "susceptible" as Takara and Yuki were completely unrelated and do not have the same genes.

I do not have Yuki's results back yet, but should by the end of the week.

Hey Tonia...

These necropsies really are interesting...but I feel like they never tell us exactly what we're looking for.

In the case of the diagnosis...the clinical diagnosis says toxin or bacterial infection, but the actual diagnosis from the pathologist only lists the toxin.

Not saying that I don't believe you...it definitely sounds like a bacterial thing going on...but the histopathology report just says toxins from what I can see.

Bacteria can produce toxins. I've been reading that a lot ever since I started looking into this. I don't know how likely it sounds to everyone else, but to me it would seem more likely with her history, that she had a dormant bacteria that was never cured and passed it onto Yuki and it built up in both of them. I wonder if I will ever know for sure.

Since the male was treated for so many days before death, the bacteria may not show up in the necropsy.

Sheila... can you think of a reason why it might not have shown up in Takara? I guess I'm just dumbfounded at this point. She was on treatment for 10 hours before she passed away.

Have you gotten the necropsy back on the male yet? I sent you an email about this. If you feel comfortable about posting the stress part you can re-write and post.

Once the glider is ill, it is hard to save them even though the bacteria is treated. I think I mentioned to you before that when bacteria builds up in the liver and releases, it is like a toxin or poison over the whole entire body. One system or gland can shut down and this causes other systems to overwork or shut down because they can't handle the load of toxin.

Yuki's results aren't back yet... they better be back by Monday though or I am going to get a little upset.

I pm'ed you back... thanks Sheila <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TMarie, I have been following this all along, i am so sorry for your loss, and now the frustration with just not knowing… I just can’t imagine… I can’t find the proper words to express so … sending you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

It's really hard... I miss them so incredibly much... my heart hurts everytime I think of what could or couldn't have gone wrong..... I keep thinking of every possibility.... in the end, it doesn't matter where or what the cause was and where it came from.... I would just rather know so I can prevent it in my other gliders and give myself some peace of mind if at all possible. Right now I sit and worry every minute of whether it was this or whether it was that and everytime I come home from work or class I run downstairs in a panic wondering if my gliders are okay... I think I might end up in a looney hospital

Here is what Peggy's vet's insights were... thanks so much Peggy for this information.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Interesting cases. I would agree with the diagnosis of shock in both cases based on the histopathology. The histopath tells what finally resulted in their death (shock), but not the insighting cause.
Based on the history, a few things come to mind. We usually try and divide tremor/seizure activity into primary or secondary CNS disease. Primary disease would be brain tumors, epilepsy, hydrocephalus, infections (viral/bacterial/fungal/parasitic), etc. Secondary disease would be things that effect the brain as it relates to the rest of the body like hypoglycemia, hypocalcemia, toxin exposure, infection(bacterial/fungal/viral/parasitic).
One interesting thing that would be good to submit (as the pathologist recommended) would be brain and spinal cord. This should be the case with any seizure/tremor patient. There are some parasites that other species of marsupials are sensitive to, like toxoplasmosis. Just a thought and maybe something to look into in the future.

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Grrrrr.... how come my specialists didn't think of this.... I am so frustrated... I fear I will never know what happened

Well oddly enough Yuki's results came back showing pneumonia, a bit of a fungal infection, and gastritis..... she is to mail me a hard copy of the report tomorrow.... i'm not sure what to make of all this.. they had the same symtoms... what is going on.....

Tonia I know your feelings and frustration. Out of disgust we have stopped having necropsy's done on our gliders. We seem to always get some generic answer that does not make any sense to even the vets. When I think back over the years of all the rescues that we have lost I can't really give you the cause of death for many of them. And quiet often when a glider is ill we give them antibiotics without really knowing what we are treating them for. In most cases with ill gliders it is difficult to get specific answers as to what is actually wrong with them.

Many people die in hospitals from pneumonia that is brought on by a staph infection that they get while in the hospital. What the person was originally being treated for may not even have anything to do with the actual cause of death. So if your glider shows to have died of pneumonia I would be very curious as to what brought about the pneumonia. Most likely there was something else that initially weakened the immune system.
Charlie H

Oh I am definately frustrated. My vet did say that could be secondary but that's what they found... my poor dolls... I loved them so much (and still do)... they didn't deserve this and I am driving myself insane not knowing what happened.

Oh Tonia, I'm so sorry, this is the first I had seen of any of this. I know you loved those two dearly, you will defiently be in my prayers. What you did to try to save them is truly amazing, you are a truly dedicated woman and put their needs before anything else! Please elt me know if there's anything I can do for you.

HISTORY: This sugar glider is from a group in which there is progressive deterioration in spite of supportive therapy. It is the second in the group to die during treatment

CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS: Cpen.

GROSS: Received in formalin are multiple tissues to 3 em. in greatest dimension that are processed in two blocks.

MICROSCOPIC: Lung: The lung has a suppurative infiltrate in the bronchioles and alveoli associated with aspiration of foreign material. dipose: Adipose stores are atrophic.
Liver: Hepatic. cords are atrophic.
Kidney: Low numbers of tubules are necrotic.
Stomach: A transmural focus of ulceration and necrosis is present within the fundus associated with larrge numbers of broad undulating septate fungal elements.
Spleen: Lymphoid cellularity is depleted. The following tissues are histologically within normal limits; esophagus, lymph node, adrenal, pancreas, and heart.

Diagnosis:
1. Severe transmural necrotizing and ulcerative gastritis with intralesional fungal elements.
2. Acute aspiration pneumonia.
3. Marked atrophy of liver and fat.
4. Acute mild renal tubular necrosis.
5. Lymphoid depletion, spleen.

COMMENT: Death was likely due to a combination of ulcerative gastritis and aspiration pneumonia. The gastric lesion has a fungal component but may have been precipitated by stress. The animal was in
suboptimal nutritional status with a significant stress response in the spleen. Evaluation of nutrition and husbandry is recommended. If additional animals die, consider fungal culture of the stomach.
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I think most of this was a result of not low appetite at the clinic along with depression and being treated for so long there... but this is what they came back with.