Yet another Platinum Post

Okay... I have been racking my brains looking at lineages, looking at glider pics... BTW that data base is all screwed up... 9 Pages of test joeys... come on folks clean up the lines on paper first...


anyway... I see entries posts questions regarding platinum mosaics, and Haley plat lines

I see ads for plat mos, plat gliders, plat hets. double hets.. how putting a plat with a leu will produce the same as putting a plat with a plat.. and then I look to see what people are even considering what a plat is...

it seems with Haley although a beautiful glider, seems to be the deciding lines on the plats.. but that would mean all the lines are related.. bahhh imagine that... I see others post they have plat mos.. that have no haley plat in their lines...

the waters are so muddy between plat colored plat mos, plat lines and plat hets.. that personally i don't think anyone has a real sense of what really is going on,

so I will say... many many moons ago..mike sandridge had a plat that he couldn't get to breed or produce plats, i also had one that wouldn't produce viable joeys, or the one we did hand feed wasn't a plat..

now those plats.. which were defined by sheila.. the same person who had the haley glider.. identified them by not having any stripe at all down their back and on their head.

there is no history in haleys line to show a plat as we knew it then...

so now everyone is asking is this a plat? posting pics... but everyone is saying "does it have plat in the lines"... so is the plats only on paper or is there a definitive way we can look at a glider and tell whether it is a plat, a plat mo or is plat colored?

I have a darker glider I was told is a plat..it has haley in the lines.. I see others that have very light gliders that also have haley in the lines. all of these gliders have stripes, faint as they may be.. but....

I also have a champagne mosaic that is very very very light and the stripe is very thin and light barely visible. what denotes the difference between the champagnes and the plats... is there really a difference or is it the leu gene that really lightens the lines up.?

how can it be accepted that a glider like haley just falls into the database with leus and white faces and standard grays in her history and all of a sudden be considered a plat..?? she is a lighter glider..yes.. but I now see gliders.. that have a dusting of silver on their backs with no stripes which is actually much closer to the plats of yesterday but yet are not considered plats because the plats are not in the lines??? makes no sense to me.. since there was no plats in haleys line either. who is to say that those gliders did have some true plat hets that was virtually unknown at the time....

I need someone to show me the comparison pics of the plats, and the plat mos, and the plat colored to show me the difference. so I can look at a glider and say... that is a plat.. we can do it with the mo's, the leus, the creaminos or black beauties even.. but we can't do it with the plats???

This is my Plat Mo she is Hailey line, she is darker than some and lighter than some.

Just something to toss out there...platinums are BORN platinum, they don;t BECOME platinum. So, if a "platinum mosaic" isn't born that way then it ain't a true platinum.

Personally, I wouldn't consider any mosaic a true platinum until it's proven out.

On that note, I did have a mosaic from platinum lines who looked like a true platinum, imo. However, at the time we didn't know that he was from platinum lines because the connection between leu and platinum was unknown and it was thought that both parents need the platinum gene to produce platinum.

However, even if I HAD known about that at the time I still wouldn't have accepted him as being a true platinum unless he produced a non-mosaic platinum.

A platinum:


A true platinum mosaic:


A platinum-colored mosaic:

Did you put the wrong picture there? That mo is definitely not a true platinum. :/ It looks like a regular ol' mosaic that might powder out as it gets older, but it doesn't look anything like a platinum, imo.

The first picture, on the other hand, looks like a true platinum.

[quote=Guerita135]Just something to toss out there...platinums are BORN platinum, they don;t BECOME platinum.

Charity was born Platinum, She powdered out because of the mosaic, She always had the taupe stripe it was just dark so the only way to see it when she was a baby was to hold her in the sun light, Then it was copper. If she wouldn't have been a Mosaic she would have been a darker plat.
But I do have to disagree with you on somthing being born and changing. If you have an animal born and it is has 2 traits, one can be stronger than the other, Then while growning it can show different traits, Just like with kids and their hair changes color as they age or their eyes change color, Or they may even look like mom as a baby then grow up to look like Dad, Science is an amazing thing thing, and it would be foolish to say somthing born of one thing can't change or it not a true this. But yes it is always what it was when it was born but in looks it can change to look different but it still is what it is.

Jen, your glider is gorgeous but I don't see anything that suggests it is a mosaic.

To me, mosaic have white patches (like the plat mosaic Alden posted), white rings on the tail, all white tail, white feet (hard to tell with a plat though as they are so light anyway) or mostly white bodies with a few grey hairs/whiskers that indicate the mosaic gene is there (compared to leus). Or any combo of these things.

White tip gliders can just pop up out of no where. They carry the gene somewhere (who knows where it started) but most often stays hidden? We know that breeding wt gliders together increases our chances of wt joeys. But the "hets" can skip many generations to the point of "us" forgetting they are hets for wt (or never knowing in the first place).

..perhaps true plats are the same?

Theresa, She is a ringtail MO don't you see her rings, she is paired to a 66% plat het wf and all their babies have been Mosaics except 3. Dad is not a mosaic.

Here are her babies
http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/zz69/jen102375/cash%20n%20charity%20babies/

There is no doubt in my mind that my Ajax is a platinum:


Ajax, Almost Four Months by Just In Luv, on Flickr

However, I see your point, Bourbon. Without the lineage to back a glider up, sometimes we can't tell on looks alone the way we can with mos and leus and so on.

There is a HUGE range in the look of platinums. Some are so dark they look like a pretty typical WFB. If you don't look at lineage, and at pics of these gliders when they first come OOP, in my opinion you would never know.

The true plat mo is a debate I don't wish to get into again. LOL I will say that Ajax has spotted ears:


Spotty Ears by Just In Luv, on Flickr


"He's Perfect!" by Just In Luv, on Flickr

and no color on his knuckles (?) so it has been tossed around that he might be a true plat mo (his mother was a mosaic). I will never know for sure as he is in love with my ringtail mosaic girl and I would not split a pair of gliders up just to prove a genetic point. But it seems that most platinums do not have spotted ears.

But I do wonder if Ajax being A) white-faced and B) 100% het for leu contributes to his being more light than some of the darker plats that come from a het x het pairing. He is Silverbell lines and for a long time I thought Haleys were dark and Silverbells light, but now I've seen pictures of gliders proving just the opposite (i.e. light Haleys and dark Silverbells).

I do wish that whoever coined the term "platinum mosaic" to mean "a very light, powdered out mosaic" could have used "silver mosaic" or something else not involving the word "platinum" instead. It would've made for less confusion.



This statement confuses me, Bourbon. It is well known that there is another platinum line, the Silverbell line.

I see her rings! Beautiful!

Awww thanks Hanna, and thanks Teresa she is very beautiful.

OOPS, my bad, sorry, no I was looking at her face so much I didn't see her purty tail! Yep, definately a mosaic!

This has been discussed several times before and while most agree that it should be "silver mosaic" instead of "plat mosaic" and that is where "plat colored mosaic" came from to distinguish between the true plat mosaics and the plat COLORED mosaics.

Old habits are hard to break.

I agree

May be hard to break, but if those that have them would change their description and start using it, it would change. Difficult, but not impossible. I won't call them platinum mosaics because that's just "not" what they are. They are silver mosaics.

If we start the change now - the "newer generation" will not be so confused.

Bourbon, I think if you limited your search to just platinum gliders and didn't consider anything that says platinum mosaic or true plat mosaic, it would be a bit easier.





I have asked several times how breeders know that their joey is a true plat mo, and I've yet to get an answer. IMO, these joeys should be considered Mosaic, 100% PH until they prove out.

okay.. as for the haley line being the only one.... well the silverbelle... is out of 2 standard grays.. owned by susan from FFR... with no history...
there isn't even a picture of silverbelle.. and pawnee's parents BOTH ... says that they are a possible het for champagne...

again my question wasn't answered... the ones that are being called platinum... are basically platinum colored a lighter color... so if in the beginning it is ASSUMED that the gene was hidden and now POP there it is we shall call them platinum... why wouldn't the ones that are like aldens plat colored mosaic be the same way? who is to say that. isn't the real plat lines, as they are far and few in between.. just as in the original plats.. after all those just started POPPING up.. now looking at the pics...



so basically the determination on whether a glider is a platinum or not is solely determined by a mill breeder (ffr) words that hers is platinum..no pics.. and haley who in actuality is a platinum Colored glider.whose line includes leusistics and mosaics.. cause no one can show me where she is any different than other platinum colored gliders..

my platina, as beautiful as she is doesn't fit any of the pics posted but states she is from the haley line.. but at the same time.. the original haley glider was a silver where as Platina closer resemble Pawnee from the silverbelle line

Mac a foundation glider was considered a platinum colored mosaic but yet his foundation isn't platinum??? and he produced some of the most beautiful grand babies.. could those leu lines be the ones that are showing up as the the ones that are being bred back to the "platinum lines?

the fu babies are a beautiful line of babies as well, which has the mac in it's line.. it also has a line of white mosaics.. could it be that the original line of true platinum, are really platinum colored mo's? or just platinum colored gliders, and the true platinum lines are being disregarded as other things?

remember the history of the platinum.. that they couldn't reproduce more platinum.. maybe just maybe this random popping up of the "dusted" mo's as in the last pic of aldens.. that DOESN'T have any stripe... is the ACTUAL true platinum line.. they can be differentiated from the other gliders.. and they can not be force produced.. as in other lines.. they are as random as the attempted breeding programs of the early 2000's.. to get a platinum joey back then would have brought a fortune... what if... they are here.. but only showing up randomly through the generations..

this would make far more sense that everything you all are saying as of yet regarding the platinum..


you see I ask this cause I don't have a financial horse in this race.. I have a creamino that is not breeding a platinum (supposedly) and I have an offspring which in my eyes is a "true platinum" I have a champagne mosaic..which looks just like what you all are saying is a platinum.. I have a platinum mosaic according to your pics..

for all those buffs out there that love to peruse the database .. check out the "random births of those dusted gliders.. see if they don't all lead back to the same place.. mother white (who was considered a white mo) or mac who was a platinum colored mo)

we have allowed the people in the past to decide what denotes certain lines and those people are the same ones that have inbred for color, are large breeders or have huge financial horses in the race..

remember before the "black beauty" they were another variation of the grays, accepted as such long before PP came in and threw a name on them... the same as the lions... and the reds, and the browns.. white faces were the colors? simply because they were OBVIOUSLY very different.. I seen some pics of gliders from australia.. that says those gray and brown lines are really common place.. it wasn't until the leus, and the mo's that there was a huge difference... but then their lighter and darker variations were ASSUMED were something different.."platinum"..

The database is messed up really bad.. almost no ones breeding programs are cleaned up.. the percentages are horribly marked (alden I noticed your were real bad) the platinum colors and platinum mos..are labeled with platinum...

and yet through all of this... no one call tell me visually how to tell if a glider is a platinum or just platinum mo or platinum colored.. don't tell me to look at the lines.. tell me what to look for on a glider so I can see the difference. simply because there could be other lines that have those same genes.. as we are seeing...

GENES determine the gliders colors.. the leu gene does not produce MO's or black beauties.. the creamino gene does not produce mosaics or black beauties. don't tell me that the platinum gene is different than the plat mos or the plat colored.. unless you can tell me why they are visually different..

I was told that true platinums' stripes are tawny/gold/brown/however you want to describe it instead of black or gray.


"Well? We're Waiting!" by Just In Luv, on Flickr

mosaic + platinum side by side
Rintoo's stripe is black, and Ajax's stripe is tan

please delete

I just followed my downline for a dusted silver mo..


mother white...white mo had snow white a white mo (possibly dusted by looking at the pic)
2 generations of regular mos or ringtails then comes Colin who is a dusted silver mosaic mo 2 generations later aurora is born.a dusted silver mo.....

now aurora was paired with bourbon a reverse strip platinum colored mo and they too produced a dusted silver mo... chiffon



the downline also has colins parents Corkey and Correy reds
which produces.........Pie balds..



makes you wanna go HMMMMMMmmmm... with the dusted silver mo's..

it was brought to my attention.. that I put haley as having mo in her downline... she does not.. soooo

yeah i am bad.... i thought that haley was a mo... but sorry about that I stand corrected

ajax doesn't have the gold/tawny brown whatever... but you know he is a plat...

without looking at his lines.. on paper... because they are all screwed up... then how do you know he is a plat

Are you looking at the same pictures I am?

Bourbon, you have to look at mosaics as something totally different than platinums; physically and genetically.

A platinum glider is a silver glider with a light tawny colored stripe.

Mosaics will have white feet - and must have a mosaic as one of the parents. A mosaics fur coloring and pattern are random.

Yes, we do take FFR's word for it that Silverbelle is/was a platinum as she has reproduced that color variation. Haley is, without question, a platinum. Both lines have proven to be platinums based on their offspring and subsequent family tree.

We are seeing more platinum gliders being born after my gliders proved that there is such a thing as a het. Until Beatrice and Bosley produced Nicky, no one was pairing the greys from plat lines to anything to try to produce plat. Now we know how to pair them and are successfully reproducing that color. We can reproduce it now just as well as we can leus and creaminos.

As far as platinum vs. champagne, I don't know how to answer that. When you and I had a conference call with Judy after Nicky was born, she explained to me the difference between the two. Platinum is silver, just like with jewelry. Champagne has a gold tint to it, just like the liquid beverage.

Now, are these two the same gene and just a variation of the two?

I have a glider that to this day I don't know how to classify his color. He's lighter than a standard, but darker than a platinum. He's gorgeous! I've consulted other breeders, and a few have seen him in person. Still no answer.

island gliders... i was looking at the first pic you posted of ajax...


so you are saying that every glider born of the haley line is either a plat or a het for plat?

so if people could get the same colors with a plat mo or a plat colored mo then why should they pay more just to have it on paper they are a plat?? obviously they are able to reproduce the plat mos so they look like plats...

and obviously the dusted silver mos can be reproduced... maybe sparsely but isn't it the coloring the looks of the glider that people buy?

Your plat boy has some white whiskers. From what I've heard that can only happen with mosaics. Together with the spotted ears, I'd say he's a true platinum mosaic.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything, I didn't have time to read the whole thread--

The platinum gene, from what I understand, passes the same way any recessive passes. It is, however, dominant over leucistic. Since platinum is dominant over leucistic, you can safely assume that a leu produced by a plat parent does NOT carry the platinum gene (or else the joey would be platinum).

When a leu is paired with a platinum, two situations could arise. If the platinum parent has two platinum genes and no leu, all of the joeys will be platinum leucistic hets. If the platinum parent is a leu het, you will get 2 leus in four and 2 platinums in four--of the platinums, all will be leucistic het (since the leu parent can only pass the leu gene). If you have a platinum leu het parent and a grey leu het parent, you will get one plat in four, one leu in four, and two "grey" joeys in four--but the two greys are 50% het for platinum and 50% het for leu. In this situation, if the joey is born "grey," it means the leu gene did not pass from the leu het parent, and there is a 50% chance that the plat parent passed the plat gene or the leu gene.

This means that a joey from a platinum parent is NOT necessarily a platinum het; if the platinum parent carries leu, either gene has an equal chance of passing to a joey since the plat parent must pass one of the genes, but cannot pass both. A leu cancels all platinum potential, and you can consider the plat gene "blocked" from traveling any further at every leucistic ancestor.

Essentially, the platinum gene works exactly like the cremino/albino genes work together.



Platinum can be planned and produced predictably. Platinum colored mosaics aren't as consistent, and here's the real kicker--they are easy to produce. You only need one mosaic parent to produce a mosaic joey, and you can get a platinum colored mosaic from nearly any mosaic parent, although there's no guarantee a mosaic glider will produce a plat colored mo, even if one has already been born to that parent. True platinum is more consistent, but the gene is rarer to come by. Many people are interested in combining platinum with other color variants (like cremino), but the bottom line is--for pet-only, a platinum colored mosaic (in my opinion) would be preferable. There is essentially no difference. For a breeder though, there are some genetic avenues left to be explored. What happens when you pair the Silverbelle line with the Haley line? Can you produce a platinum het cremino? Can a platinum het cremino produce a cremino het platinum? Can you combine cremino and platinum to make a joey that is BOTH colors, and if so, how does that work with breeding? If a platinum/cremino joey can be produced, is it possible to have a plat/cremino joey that is het for plat, leu, cremino AND albino? It just comes down to what breeders would like to do. I wouldn't recommend paying $3k for a pet-only platinum when you could get a beautiful plat colored mo for $600 pet only.

There is no guarantee that with a silver mosaic parent they will ever reproduce a silver mosaic joey. When it comes to mosaic joeys, you never know what they will look like. With platinums, you know the joeys will be either platinum or grey hets.

Whether people like the concept or not, pricing is based on supply, demand, and the economy. Within the past few years, most of the color gliders prices have come way down. People pay for what "they want". If they truly want a platinum, they pay for a platinum, and won't settle for anything else. It's all personal preference.

With mosaics being so easy to reproduce, why are they valued any higher than a WF? Simply because people want them and are willing to pay those prices.

Exactly...white faces used to go for $2000 each too. They multiplied quickly, though, and their price dropped out quickly as well. Mosaic prices have dropped dramatically because of how easy they are to produce, but there is still enough demand for them that their prices stay above the $1000 mark (usually). I think a big factor is also that they all come out looking different. You can have a colony of white faced gliders that you can't tell apart, but if you have a colony of mosaics it's likely that every one will look a little different.

Shelly said..




but Kitsune said...


so according to kitsune... if it is born a leu.. the plat line stops there... so a leucistic glider can not have a plat het percentage...

and before a het is marked or sold as a plat het .. it must prove itself first??



so the people that are buying plat hets may actually only be getting leu hets? unless they produce a plat? and that offspring will determine whether the het is actually a leu or plat?


so the breeders that are actually breeding the leus with the plat or the hets... are actually diluting the lines?
so further down the line it will be harder and harder to have the plat gene?

what happens if the plat hets are paired with mos.. and all they produce is expressed mos..

This is true, Bourbon. I see many gliders marked as "100% plat and 100% leu het" but this is not possible. A joey that carries both genes is platinum. However, it's not platinum that is being diluted. It's leucistic. The same way the cremino lines diluted the albino lines--it's now very difficult to find albino gliders, since a pure cremino paired to an albino will only produce albino het creminos. Since most creminos have come from cremino-only ancestry, creminos are usually double cremino hets, and do not carry the albino gene unless indicated by the breeder (it would still be a 50% albino het). I really doubt that the leu lines will come to a point of rarity like the albino lines have since leucistic lines are healthy and plentiful, but if the leu lines were less populated and platinum was more common than leu, there would be a real possibility of polluting the leu lines to the point where leu is difficult to achieve without platinum contamination. It is now considered undesirable to pair a cremino with a true albino because the albino lines need to be preserved and re-established.

If a platinum parent that is het for leu (which is the most common right now, since most people are pairing plat to leu to get easier plats) is paired with a grey non-het parent, ALL joeys are 50% plat het, 50% leu het. ONLY if a platinum parent carries 2 platinum genes will the joeys be 100% plat het every time. This can ONLY be proven if a platinum is paired with a leu or leu het and only platinum (or grey) joeys are born to the pair. If a leu is born, the plat parent is proven leu het.

ETA: sorry, that might have sounded differently than what I intended when I say that leu blocks platinum--what I mean is that when looking back through pedigrees, if you come to a leucistic glider, any platinum ancestry before that leu is no longer passable. The leu ancestor cannot carry platinum, and so any future joeys cannot carry platinum from THAT leu ancestor's lineage. Platinum can still pass from other ancestors that do not have a leucistic "blocking" the platinum gene's progression down the line.

so what is happening to the plats that are being diluted with the mos??? and the wf???

Mosaic and white face are co-dominant genes, which means only one parent is required to pass the variant. They are also COMPATIBLE with recessive genes--which means you can have a mosaic and/or white faced platinum, leu, cremino or albino. The reason the platinum gene dilutes the leucistic line is because it's dominant over leu--it would be like taking a leucistic line and breeding for grey. The grey will come out on top and make the leu gene harder to find.

The theory has been disproven. There ARE double hets that have proven out by producing both platinum and leu.

Also, how can you prove whether or not a leu carries platinum? It's impossible...

Because the leu gene is able to work with the platinum gene to produce platinum it is therefor impossible to prove whether or not a leu or leu het also carries the platinum gene because when paired with a platinum or platinum het they will still produce platinum, regardless of whether or not they carry the platinum gene.

However, with that being said, there are many instances where people have paired platinum/Leu hets or platinum het/leu hets to leu or leu hets and gotten only platinum or only leu and not both. I feel that the reason for this is because when the 2 genes are paired with each other one will become more dominant. Which gene will be dominant is different with each case. In some pairings Platinum will be dominant and you'll get only platinum and in other pairings Leu will be dominant.

For example: you could pair a Platinum/100% Leu Het male to 2 Leucistic females and one might produce all platinums while the other produces all leucistics. It's pretty much just luck of the draw.

As proof of my "theory", there have been instances where a Platinum Het/Leu het only produced leu, but their offspring produced platinum, this proving that the parent was, indeed, a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het. It disproves the theory a glider can only pass on one gene or the other.

Bernard(belonging to Shelly Sterk) is a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het.

http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=6889

Bernard has produced Leucistics(which makes him a 100% Leu Het) and his son, Kalvin, was paired with a 100% Leu Het and produced a Platinum, which proves Bernard out as a 100% Platinum Het.

It's the perfect example of how Leucistic and Platinum "faced off" and Leucistic won, meaning that Bernard and his mate were only able to produce Leucistics. However, Bernard was still able to pass the Platinum gene onto his joeys because even though he can't express the platinum gene doesn't mean it's not there.

I hope that all makes sense...

Could it be that the leu masks the platinum? Like it can mask the mosaic and the white face? If so, is that what you are calling leu 100% plat hets? Because if so, then there is at least one case where there ARE hets for mosaic and/or white face.

*shrug* That's how I was taught it worked. I've heard it from a few people...have been looking at lines. I haven't seen any proven double hets, can you link me to one? I saw a plat paired with a leu het boy and all of their joeys were plat or grey. Can't remember the name, but I'll look for it...

http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=6889

I linked it above. Bernard, the grandfather, is a double het but the database hasn't been updated to show it. Bernard produced leu and his son produced platinum when paired to a 100% Leu Het(no plat in her lines), which makes Bernard a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het.

Excuse me if I am posting in where I don't belong but... I am really new at all this coloring and het stuff and am trying to understand. I have a breeding pair, Honey Bee is a Leu, Katahdin is a Grey 100% Leu Het 12% Plat Het from Haley lines whose father was a Leu. I read here and get confused.

*[This means that a joey from a platinum parent is NOT necessarily a platinum het; if the platinum parent carries leu, either gene has an equal chance of passing to a joey since the plat parent must pass one of the genes, but cannot pass both. A leu cancels all platinum potential, and you can consider the plat gene "blocked" from traveling any further at every leucistic ancestor.]*

I have understood that the Leu and Grey genes are so strong that it is pretty certain my joeys would be one or the other, either Leu or Grey Leu Het with VERY small Plat Het. But with what was posted above, I am understanding this would mean my Katahdin is not a Plat Het at all because he carries the Leu gene and that any joeys they would have, have no chance of being Plat because Honey is a Leu. So, that would mean, this branch of the Haley Plat line dies. Am I understanding this correctly? I am not trying to throw my hat in the Plat selling ring, I am keeping all the babies I have. Just trying to understand all of this.

Don't feel bad tracy I am also confused I have a little girl that I have been told is what is considered to be platinum but according to this debate she is not I do agree with bourbon on the platinum we need a coloring and distinctive markings to look for on the platinum so that people can tell if the baby is a platinum. That way nobody can come in and say well you misrepresented what you had because that is wrong I would like to see pics of what are the actual platinums not just what they are refering to as platinum mosaic but the actual platinums

I was wondering why albinos were rare. I bought my albino from GBG but noticed like nobody else selling any. Besides pet glider, that just put one up on her site.

So let me get this straight. If you take an albino, with no creme history, and put it with a creme-ino, with no albino history, you will get a creme-ino, het albino? I just don't understand why you wouldn't get a grey double het. Like why wouldn't it be a grey either het albino, or het creme-ino. How would it come out creme-ino, if the albino has no creme so that gene doesn't know how to produce creme-ino at all.

http://thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=2259

Miranda is also a 100% Leu Het/100% Platinum Het.

However, I think that her case is extraordinarily rare. Most double hets won't actually produce leu and platinum because one gene becomes dominant over the other.

If what Guerita135 is saying is correct, then it would stand to reason that if Miranda (double Het joey) had 1 Lue joey then ALL her joeys would be Lues. But aren't there cases where the breeder has said 1 of twins is Lue and the other twin Plat? Again if what was said is correct, this could not be true... both joeys would be Lues or both be Plats.

Also, if I am understanding what was said earlier in the posts correctly. Because Mirandas mommy was a Lue the Plat line died and Miranda would not be Plat Het. And if you look further back in Mrainada lineage... Haley (great grand mother) is a Plat who had a Plat joey who had a Lue joey (Mirandas mommy).

Still as confused... maybe moreso. I agree that there should be a VERY consistent visual attribute that makes the glider a Plat.

Look at the other three pics I posted. They are more true-to-life. The first pic had weird lighting.

I'm not sure I buy the story that there can't be double hets and that the leu kills the line. If that was true, we would not have the cases where both leu and plats are being born from the same line. If the leu kills the line, then NO line would be able to do this, yet it has, more than once. That proves double hets exist.

I believe that a joey born of a plat parent is a 100% plat het, just as a joey born of a leu is a 100% leu het. From that point forward, there is never a guarantee that the joey carries any color gene. The percentage indicates the percent chance that it received the gene from the parent. You only know for sure once it reproduces the desired color. At that point, the database should be updated indicating the glider is a 100% het.

The fact is that a glider is either a het or it's not.

I think part of the problem may be the database not being kept updated. In the case of Bernard, I need to update that information.

Let's put it this way...

If I were to breed multiple pairs of 100% Cremino Het/100% Leu Hets together and some of the pairs produced all cremino and others produced all leucistics, would that mean that their joeys could only carry one gene or the other? OF COURSE NOT! All it means is that when double hets are paired together sometimes one gene will over-power the other. Just because a gene is over-powered doesn't mean it no longer exists.

So, why do people assume that when leu and plat is crossed only one gene can be passed on?

I think that the theory about gliders only being able to carry one gene or the other was made prematurely and falsely. Not enough was known at the time about platinum to be able to properly "diagnose" how the gene works.

Unfortunately, the theory was spread like wildfire and now everyone takes it as fact instead of theory, which was all that it was. The theory, however, has been dis-proven multiple times and needs to be thrown out.

Also, in my opinion, I believe that part of the reason that the theory was spread so much was to increase the desirability of certain breeders' joeys... It's interesting because I noticed that when the theory first came out the breeders who were sticking to it and spreading it the most were those with "pure" platinums(a.k.a.- platinums with no leu in their lines or who were only low % hets).

Maybe it's just me being paranoid, but I've seen breeders do alot crazier things to sell joeys and shoot down the competition...

It's only been the last few years since the platinum breeding has taken off. Don't forget, we used to be told there was no such thing as a plat het; so no one put those gliders into a breeding program to try to attempt getting plats out of them. Their lineage most likely doesn't indicate they are plat hets either.

But, since December 2008 when plat hets were proven to exist - the entire plat breeding program has expanded. Theories were discussed, we stick to those theories until they are disproven.

It has been proven that plat hets exist, and that double hets for plat and leu exist.

He is now updated in the database.

Awesome! Thanks for taking the time to update him Shelly. I wish everyone else would keep their gliders updated. It'd save alot of time and trouble.

Speaking of which, I should probably go through a check to make sure all my gliders are up-to-date, lol. I usually check every couple months.

i also believe that gliders can be double hets as proven.

regards,
nancy in detroit

so not true... my first post.. says... we had plats in 2001 2002.....and yes they were placed into a breeding program

Yes, you did say that they were in a breeding program, but you also said



It is true that breeders weren't selling plat hets "as hets" because it was thought that it had to be a plat to reproduce a plat; just like a WF or mosaic. Look at how rare the plat gliders were a few years ago and how plentiful they are getting now. There has been a major increase in their production in the last 3 years.

I didn't say they didn't exist before 2008.

Trying to understand others' opinion and knowledge on this topic. So forgive the questions here, playing a bit of devil's advocate. (And as you'll see, I'm not genetic expert, lol.)

A glider can be het for plat and het for leu.
A glider can be platinum and het for leu.
A glider can be leu but cannot be het for plat.

Correct?

The reason is that the plat gene and leu gene are on the same allele. If that is true then how can both genes be on the same allele in a platinum glider, but the same two genes can't be in a leu glider?

There was a theory that a glider had to express the platinum color to reproduce a platinum; the same as the WF and mosaic gene, indicating that plat hets do not exist.

Silverbelle was born in 2000 and Haley was born in 2004. So it took 4 years to disprove that theory when Beatrice & Bosley (both grey gliders) had Nicky, a platinum.

We have had a platinum, leu het glider paired with a leu het reproduce both leus and plats. We have not had a leu, plat het glider paired with a non plat reproduce a plat. Right?

Is anyone trying to disprove this, or is this an assumption because it hasn't happened yet. Or, is there a scientific/genetic reason it can't happen?

good question shelly. i hope we can get an answer on this.
this is what they are saying on lgg-
a leu, plat het paired with a leu het with no plat. in the lines will not produce a plat. only leus or grays.

regards,
nancy in detroit

Actually, I think they are saying that if the joey is a leu, it can't be a plat het. That is why they're saying it would only be able to reproduce leus and greys.

ok.

wondering if somebody can prove this different.

regards,
nancy in detroit

I am going to be completely honest here and say I am thoroughly confused. I have a trio of gliders which consist of Chenelle (MSG) & Prada (MSG) which are two platinums that are 100% leu hets paired with Armani SLF who is a leu & also a 100% platinum het. Chenelle has produced two sets of twins - both consisted of a leu and a platinum. Prada has had one joey which was a platinum. Prada currently has two more joeys ip. Does this help this conversation or clear anything up? I am soo confused that I could just be mucking up the water here with nothing helpful at all. Figured I would post and see if it might help. Thanks!!

Nope, what you are posting is what is expected and known to occur. You have two platinum gliders that are paired with a lue. Their offspring has been platinum and leucistic.

What is being said is that your leu joeys cannot be considered platinum hets and will not be able to reproduce a platinum joey if its paired with a leu het.

Also, that your glider Armani SLF that you said is a Leucistic, 100% Platinum het doesn't actually carry the platinum gene.

I'm not saying this is true, but what this thread and a thread on LGG is saying.

Thanks for responding Shelly. I never want to misrepresent my gliders or their joeys. It makes me crazy that I can't grasp this and that it's not more cut and dried.

I was wondering why some platinums were lighter than others... some Ive seen are almost as dark as regular grays. If you put a plat to a plat does it produce a lighter plat?

I don't know of anyone who has paired Platinum and Platinum. I would be curious to see the result of such a pairing though!

As for coloring, I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm sure there's something at play there genetics-wise, but it's unknown at this time. Maybe some day I'll play around on TPG Database and see if there is anything in the lineages that might shine some light on it.

I am going to chime in....

Bourbon:

As to the glider that Mike Sandridge had... it was Not a Platinum. The glider's name was Shadow... and he was a Beautiful Plat colored Mosaic with lots of white. He was purchased from Helen Moreno/Priscilla Price. He never reproduced because he came from the sterile line. He appeared to be fully packaged... however he later proved to be Sterile.

And the male Bourbon had... it is unknown who was the breeder. Because that male was unable to reproduce there is the possibility that he too may have been from the mosaic sterile line also. Because I saw that glider... I would not define his coloration as a Platinum. Rather a min marked mosaic since he had a silver tail.

I have a migraine now. UGH! LOL

There are two lines of Platinum. Haley line comes from Sheila Willson and those gliders tend to be darker. I have a Platinum male from this line.

I also have a Platinum female from the Silverbelle line that is much lighter. Susan Schoeffler is the breeder of the Silverbelle Platinums.

Not really recommended for anyone to bred rare color to same rare color. Some have, but we don't know what the results can be. One noted vet once pointed out that by breeding color to color, can bring out genetic defects that are unwanted. Genetic defects can rear their ugly head up to 3 and 4 generations out from the original breeding. Why risk it?

Now all true Platinums (regardless if they come from the Haley line or the Silverbelle line), will be born almost white, but with a reddish\brown stripe on the head. They do have head stripes.



This is my Haley Platinum Male.



This is my Silverbelle female. She is much lighter then the male:



Sorry. At this time, I am not sure if I have a true Platinum Mosaic. I may, but I have been told that I have to wait and see if he produces a Platinum of any kind first before I can call him that.

What does it mean if a glider comes from a sterile line? If the line is sterile, how did any of them reproduce in the first place?

Amy,

Sterile line gliders are able to reproduce because the sterility is only passed onto the males (the males are most often born with undeveloped or under developed testicles), females from sterile lines are able to successfully breed but it runs the risk of having males born who will not be able to breed.

now the sterile lines have little to no gonads.. but the glider I had many many years ago Judie... did produce joeys, they just didn't survive as they were always rejected.. so is it still possible for a sterile glider to actually produce? and can they be saved by hand feeding as we had done to the one joey? was mike able to save any of his?

If the male was truly sterile, then he wouldn't have been able to produce joeys at all.