I know how you feel Amanda. I felt so HORRIBLE taking out all their stuff! But Bourbon just kept telling me, "Are you getting bit? Are you getting crabbed at? Then YOU are the unhappy one, NOT the gliders."

So Bourbon said tonight that she is "cutting me loose" as far as Ranger is concerned. Now we're just keeping up with Nika. I told her that I have her phone number now, she CAN'T cut me loose, I'm calling her anyway haha

Just to remind everyone, less than 4 weeks ago Ranger would crab if anyone walked by the cage, and a bonding pouch was not an option. If I tried to put him in a bonding pouch, he would crab and lunge at the window INCESSANTLY until I took him out-even if he had to crab for an hour. I could not even THINK of picking this little guy up, and he did not want to get on me even during play time.

Now-he will get on my hand whenever I put it up to him. I can scoop him up no matter where he is and he doesn't mind. He will stay on me when I walk around the house, and chirp in my ear. He will take lickys from my finger without biting. When I come in the room when he is awake he will run up to where the Rept zipper usually opens and chirp.

Usually when I am going to interact with the gliders I kick everyone out of the room because I don't want ANYTHING scaring the gliders. Because of the progress I have had with Ranger, I decided today to see how he does around other people. He climbed onto my hand, and my experimental visitor (lol) held her hand up to Ranger. He sniffed it and then climbed back up to my shoulder. Then he climbed back down and sniffed her hand again, and then got on her!! Crawled all over her. When he started to look like he wanted to come back, I put my hand up and he climbed right on and came back. Not scared at all. I was wearing a shirt with a pocket in the front, and he then crawled right into my shirt pocket and went to sleep.

So, I have some pictures for you to show you how good Ranger is being.

Bourbon said Merry Christmas to me, but I am saying Merry Christmas to Ranger, and apologizing for not understanding him before. Not to mention promising that I am in no way going to betray the trust he is beginning to give me.

So now, on to working with Nika lol (and continuing to bond with Ranger).

Ranger is a cutey pie

You are sooo lucky Deanna!!! Congratulations on the bond you are forming with Ranger. Your hard work is certainly paying off!!!!!

Thanks guys I probably sounded downright ridiculous the last several times I've called Bourbon because every time we had a breakthrough I was just ecstatic haha. I'm surprised that Nika is proving to be more difficult, as I thought that she trusted me more (before we started with Bourbon).

Robin, how are Bella and Donna doing?

Have you ordered a PP pouch yet Holly?

Hee hee... In case anyone thinks our perspectives are warped bc these are OUR babies. I'll tell everyone what happened at my house today.

My cousin that has 3 gliders came over to day to deliver a bicycle she was hiding for me today. When she came into the glider's room, I told her, "Hey Mary, watch this".

Now, she hasn't been in my house since before I started working with Bourbon and Donna (my pp glider). The last time she saw me with my gliders I was bitten while handing out treats in a bonding pouch, and Donna crabbed nonstop for 30 minutes after she tried to look in the pouch.

Anyway, "Hey Mary, watch THIS..." I reach into the pp pouch and scoop up Donna, hold her in my hands and scratch around her ears. Meanwhile... my cousin is standing there with her jaw dropped, eyes wide open. PRICELESS I tell ya! THen she whispers, "Is that Donna?" I said, "Yep, wanna pet her?" Well... I can't repeat on a G rated forum what she said, but needless to say she refused as SHE had also taken a bite from my fat girl at our last meeting.

I returned Donna to the cage, and still my cousin stood there with her mouth open. She actually accused me of getting another glider, telling me there was no way that was the same Donna. LOL

Nope, its NOT the same Donna! Its the new and improved happy and somewhat trusting Donna!

THANK YOU and MERRY CHRISTMAS BOURBON AND KARIN!!!!! I love you both!

Merry Christmas everyone from me, the gliders, and the dogs.

OH YEAH! That was pretty funny! She was so surprised, accusing me of swapping gliders. LOL Some people, including ME in the beginning, just cannot believe a glider can change like that.

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!!!

Updates?

Update:

Pogo has stopped crabbing all together! She has become really used to me! I go in and pet her and she'll look up at me and go back to sleep. I also started putting my hand under her and leaving it there. She's not so tolerant of my mother.

Lilly is VERY seti n her ways. She is fine with licky treats on a spoon but not on a straw. When I try to give her the straw she jumps out of the pouch.

Last night we started introductions with each other. They like each other a lot! I'll post picsi n the Glider Talk section.

DAY 1: Talked to Bourbon for an hour and a half of her precious time, again, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
And am starting the journey...

The norm: Pae is super skittish and won't let me near her while in the cage, when out she just tries to find a place to hide. Nips at me sometimes but doesn't bite too much. If I came in the room while she was out of the her pouch she would just run STRAIGHT to her pouch and hide from the big, mean ol' me.

Emma is a crabby little thing. Poor girl. She's gotten better in the last couple days but still will ATTACK if I dared to put my hand in the pouch while she was awake. Bourbon asked, "What happens if you put your hand in the pouch?"... Well, if I want a hand to pull OUT of the pouch, I would NEVER attempt it! Hahaha. When out of the pouch, Emma let's us (hubby and I) pet and say hi to her but isn't interested in anything else and would run away from our hands to the pouch or another corner of the cage.

So I have my makeshift PP Pouch in there that I crafted from a piece of fleece and ordered the real deal a few minutes ago.

It's late so they would be awake anyways, Emma is running around with the "Where in tarnation did you put my wheel woman?!?!" look on her face. Pae is finally running around the page a BIT but for the most part just hiding in the corner. Emma keeps going up to her and checking every bit of Pae to make sure she's ok. It's cute to watch but hurts my heart too. I know it stresses her out. I also know that tomorrow will be worse as we have my husband's daughter staying with us and she's noisy and they aren't used to being in the living room. We've been in the living room more lately due to the holidays and such. But now that things are settling more we will most likely be in the office more... so we'll see where they end up. I don't know.

Feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this... And going to be adopting a boy during this process... so that will add to the fun. Oy.

Time for bed. Been a long day. My brain is full!

Don't worry your babies will be fine and soon you will see totally different behavior from them.

Bourbon has some really great tricks that work wonders!

Morning of Day 2: They are staying in the bottom corner of the cage.

Emma will NOT sleep without Pae and Pae doesn't do well with adjustment... so right now, Pae is curled up and "hiding" where she used to hide behind the wheel (which of course is no longer there). And Emma is trying to wrap herself around and sometimes under Pae.

Progress? When I open the door to say hello, Emma comes to do the door and checks things out. This would happen before but the progress is that I'm able to pet her without her running all over and her trying to bite me.

So I don't know what to think. I'm not going to stop doing this. I will follow the advice, I know that my gliders are not the exception to this rule about this working...

Oh Holly, if she answers the phone you are not bothering her! She does this because she wants to help out the gliders.


Jennifer, her coming to the cage door is a very good thing, means she trust that you are the one thing in her life that isn't out to get her. If she was upset with you or scared of you, she would have stayed in the corner crabbing at you to go away. There have been a few gliders in this thread that have refused to sleep in the makeshift pouch, and a few that hated the real thing when it arrived. Be patient, bc most of them get tired of snuggling in the back corner of the cage on the cold floor and eventually go to the pouch. You're doing great! Congrats on starting your journey!

Ok, Bourbon, you rock. It's official!

She called and walked me through things with the girls, it's the neatest experience! They are back in the corner sleeping but at least they have checked out the pouch and gotten some yummy treats in there. I put yogurt in a straw for them - HEAVEN! Was adorable to watch them chew on the straws trying to get more yummies. (this time we just gave them the straws and let them go to town with them)

Also, I was able to get Pae on my hand and let her climb around on my arms - usually she runs from my hand while in the cage!!!

Still day 2 and they aren't in the make-shift pouch sleeping yet, but hopefully they'll get there. Especially as I start putting yummy treats in there for them.

Jennifer, you need to hold onto the straw for them to get the yummies. That's the purpose of the licky treats, so they will know the good stuff comes from YOUR loving hands. Got it? That is kind of a key thing in the process, the goodies have to come from YOU! "Oooohhhhh! Here comes that lady that has the good stuff!" You want your babies to fall in love with you, not just the straw full of yogurt.

When I first started with Bourbon, Donna would dart out of the pouch. What I had to do was show her the licky treat, maybe even let her have one tiny lick... thenwithdraw the treat and show her she had to be in the pouch to get it. I tell you, it takes some work, but she got there, and yours will too. Now whenever I open the cage door, no matter where they are in the cage, they FLY into that pouch to see what good stuff I have for them!!!!! Anything other than their regular diet comes from your hands, and only when they are in the open pouch. Bourbon had to beat all this into my thick skull. LOL But it really works.

I had Bourbon on the phone with me, she was walking me through with what to do and everything. She told me to give the straws to the girls. We did a little of the lickies and then she said to fill the straw and give it to them.

I understand though. Just doing as instructed from Bourbon, I'm not going to just give them treats for staying on the bottom of the cage. At this point, I will be putting the treats IN the pouch and leaving them there until they start staying in the pouch then we'll continue with licky treats in the pouch. Also, when they had the straw this time I was petting them and letting them associate good stuff with my hands. Now the goal is the treats with the pouch then it will be treats from my hand/straw while IN the pouch... but they aren't staying in the pouch yet.

I didn't really take into account that Donna was so ferocious, Bourbon knows what she is doing and most likely tailoring what needs to be done with each glider individually. Of course you do what she says, I was trying to tell you what she had ME do, and that won't neccessarily work for everyone. LOL

But isn't it super cute they way they go after those straws???

Thanks. I LOVE the way the go after straws super fun to watch!

AND even though they are sleeping in the corner still, I'm able to reach in a pet them lots and they just sit there, a couple times it has looked like Emma was going to bite or at least crab but nothing yet all day!!!! I'm not going to push it, I don't want her to crab or bite and that's my goal.

I'm sorry... you guys are getting a blow-by-blow account of what's happening here... But...

Day 2 evening: They were still sleeping in the corner of the cage, and would let me pet them and didn't seem happy but ZERO crabbing and ZERO biting. So I let them smell some yogurt in a straw and tempted them up to the make-shift PP Pouch. After Pae woke up she was running around the cage a bit, I was able to reach in and she crawled onto my hand. I took her out of the cage, held her a bit like Bourbon showed (or rather, told me) how to. Anyways, I put her into the pouch with the yogurt in straw and she was looking at me and eating, I left the door open and talked with her. Soon Emma was ALL over this and took her straw and was on the side of the cage eating. VERY HAPPY GIRL!

And NOW, they are both sleeping in the pouch together! I'm leaving them alone for a bit as Bourbon instructed but I'm SOOO excited!!!!

They do have one hand pulling a piece of fleece over their head, kind of like a teenager that doesn't want to wake up with the pillows pulled over their head. It's ADORABLE!!!

*sigh* day is getting better. Thank you all for your support!

Hey, the blow-by-blow makes you feel good and keeps you excited. Believe me, I know! LOL Not to mention others that are having the same issues as you, but don't have Bourbon personally helping can use this information for the good of THEIR gliders! So you post away girl.

YEAH for progress! Keep up the good work girl!

I'm going to have to disagree w/that statement. I've been staying out of these posts, but I feel I have to speak up after reading that. Yes, this method will be successful because the glider is being forced to accept you. The glider is not being given a choice. I strongly feel this is causing undue stress and trauma to the glider. When you read about bonding, you will constantly see the reference to taking things at the glider's pace. Why then, is this method being used? To me, this is breaking their spirit. Some of these descriptions of the behavior I read sound to me like many of my rescues that have come in: scared. Is stripping away everything and forcing yourself...a big strange "thing"...on them a way to ease that fear? I don't think so. I'm going to make another comparison. I just watched the movie "Rendition". A man was taken hostage and tortured because they thought he had info they wanted. Through negative means, they broke his spirit until he did what they wanted just to make it stop. That's what this method makes me think of. I know that sounds extreme, but my belief is that this method is extreme. The glider is scared and the glider is NOT happy. Just because a glider isn't doing the "offensive" behavior (which, I must add, is offensive to us), does NOT mean it's happy. Gliders are extremely intelligent animals. They need enrichment to keep their minds entertained. Enrichment is toys, wheels, activity. By taking away all enrichment, the glider is being caused stress. Stress can increase the chance of illness. Stress should be avoided. Patience is the most important tool in bonding...regardless of the glider's behavior. I have worked w/crabby gliders, biters, lungers, terrified gliders. I have successfully earned their trust w/out using any negative methods. This method was recommended to me once. I listened to it and felt it to be cruel so I never did it. I have one use for pouch protective pouches: a sleeping area for gliders in an ecollar. That's it. Something everyone should remember is that gliders are unique and cannot be expected to react to us in the same way or a way we want or expect. By loving them, we must accept their personality. Some gliders enjoy being held while others don't. Forcing them to do any type of behavior is not kind. Time must be invested to earn trust. There's no easy or quick way out of that. I know that there are many folks who feel the way I do about this method. No one has posted because we know it won't be well received, but after reading the remark about the glider being happy JUST because they're not crabbing or biting forced me to post this. To me, that describes a glider whose spirit has been broken. I do not fault any of the newer folks who have followed this advice. I do want to remind everyone that we need to take any advice and decide for ourselves if it's sound. Not one member of this, or any board, is all knowing. It is up to each of us to decide what we feel is best for our gliders.

There is a lot of things we are not agreeing on these days, and I am sorry you had to use this thread to add just one more thing..

we are not breaking their spirit, we are not using negative behavior to "take away" their offensive behavior.

In fact it is just the opposite, I am sure the owners of these gliders will come in here and respond. but I can tell you, I have seen these gliders that have been absolutely petrified, crabbing when someone enters the room, attacking the cage when someone enters, and watching these gliders now have the opportunity to run and jump and play more,they are loved on petted and is reciprocating that love, These gliders are getting far more attention without the fear of their environment, with the owners being afraid of being attacked, bitten, and lunged at.

I work with these gliders and am able to place them into homes, working with the owners, to continue their trust building.

Many of these people have already tried the other methods, they have done what everyone has told them to do, each glider is different, each glider has it's own set of issues, and each glider is being addressed according to those issues.

You have never had an opportunity to see me in person working with these scared gliders, working with the owners. You are judging my techniques that are proving to work, and is giving the gliders a far more enriching life that the fear filled life they had before.

I have had many many years of working with different trust building techniques. Instead of you judging techniques you yourself have never tried, or seen the results of, watching their eyes go from terrified to calm to trust, to where the gliders finally start building a trusting bond with their owners, instead of judging, let the owners speak, they have seen the differences in their gliders, they have seen the love in their eyes, they have heard the purrs, and the clicking instead of the crabbing and lunging and biting.

you don't like the techniques, don't use them, do what you do, help others with your techniques, I will continue to help the owners help their gliders.

I am not going to pretend that the crabbing lunging and biting are symptoms of happy gliders that feel safe
I am not going to pretend that these gliders are okay when they are shaking and attacking anything that approaches their pouch. I am not going to go with old methods that continued and still do, make some gliders cage gliders, and worse yet more gliders that enter rescue homes. I am not going to feed into the negativity that surrounds those that have their own agenda masking it as something it is not.

I am merely expressing my opinion on this method...not about any people involved. My opinon is a valid one and is based on behavior modification techniques. My belief is that stripping away all enrichment items is negative. Crabbing is a normal part of being a glider. Even happy gliders crab. I don't believe there is an across the board way to gain trust of gliders. There is no right way, but my opinon is that by removing all enrichment the glider's health is being jeopardized. Gliders need daily physical activity as well as emotional stimulus. If a glider has no enrichment items, it has no chance for physical and mental activity. That is my disagreement w/this method. I have not found studies w/truly positive results to this type of behavior modification. It is a forced trust. By allowing the glider enrichment items, you are giving it ways to stimulate its body and mind and work off excess energy. By giving them an output for that energy, the glider has an increased level of happiness. It is not only in gliders that negative reinforcement is used. The change in the "look in their eyes" is not necessarily one of trust and love, but one of resignation. Animals do learn, whether it be from postive or negative reinforcement. The question is what do they learn.

There's so much I feel the need to say that I am afraid my post will lack organization, so I apologize if that is the case. Please bear with me as I sort through my reactions to these posts.

As far as "Are you getting bit? Are you getting crabbed at? Then YOU are the unhappy one, NOT the gliders."...I don't think anyone meant to insinuate that the gliders are HAPPY that first night when we took all of their stuff out of the cage. Bourbon was just trying to get Robin to understand that progress had already been made-the ferocious Donna was no longer crabbing or biting. Clearly the glider wasn't happy at this point. I'm sure that most gliders are feeling confused and are still very nervous after having their stuff removed from the cage. The point of that statement was moral support for the people feeling awful as they look at their empty cage.

Regarding the method itself...I TRIED everything I read on here. I TRIED everything everyone else told me, everything I read on every thread and every breeders website on this forum. I did MASS amounts of research trying to find something that would work to quell the fear of my Ranger, a pouch protective glider for sure. In six months we had made NO progress. None. I can't pinpoint ONE difference in how much Ranger DIDN'T trust me from the first day I got him to the day before I started working with Bourbon. You may write this off as "Oh she wasn't doing the methods correctly," or "Oh she wasn't taking it at the gliders pace," but I assure you, I did the BEST I could following these other methods because I desperately wanted Ranger to no longer be afraid.

The thing about Ranger is that I honestly believe that fear blinds him. When he is crabbing, he is completely terrified. He can't rationalize! When he was sleeping in a normal pouch he would crab and lunge if someone happened to be in the same room as his cage. Naturally, he wasn't about to come out to see what was making all of those sounds because he was SCARED! EVERYTHING was scary to him. The purpose of the PP pouch is so that the glider can SEE what is making those sounds around him. When he sees these things, he realizes that even when these sounds are made, no one is coming toward him, no one is being aggressive toward him, no one is going to hurt him. Some gliders do need to be "forced" to do this-like I said, Ranger wasn't about to come out of that pouch on his own.

In this method, the glider is not being "forced" to accept anyone. The way you described Bourbon's method is the same way I describe (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets's method (you know-cover your finger in nasty tasting stuff and shove it to the back of the gliders mouth, as far as you can, for five minutes or more every time the glider bites). THAT is breaking its spirit. THAT is
forcing the glider to accept you. Each of the steps in Bourbon's method is taken at the gliders pace. You talk to them outside of the cage until they are no longer scared of that...you talk to them inside of the cage until they are no longer scared of that, etc.

For months I saw Ranger terrified. He came out for playtime and that was it. I could see the blind fear in his eyes. And now he rides around with me all day. He gives me kisses and chirps in my ear, and just TRY to get him off my hand when it's time to go back in the cage These are not actions of a glider whose spirit has been broken, who has "resigned" to act the way I "want" him to. These are the actions of a glider who is no longer fearful of things he cannot see.

My gliders are not sick, and not all of their enrichment toys are removed in this process, only toys that they can hide behind. I have tail carriers and they have plastic wrist bangles in their cage that they run all over the place. They get to play with their straws, and they play with each other. I am pretty much nocturnal, so I see them at night and I assure you, they are not bored or stressed, they act the same as they did before I took all of the stuff out of their cage. I don't think they liked half of the toys I picked out for them anyway lol.

I know this is a really long post, so I'm sorry. I felt the need to thoroughly explain why I don't feel that this method is at all cruel or unusual.