I have to agree with you Sheila, when Priscilla realeased this varriation to the public... it did seem like an explosion of sudden color. At that time I think she had what seemed like thirty or so pair of mosaics.

We had to wait for about two years before any non sterile ones were released.

Anyway after talking to P tonight, I don't think that the name Platinum Mosaic will just go away or be changed, but I asked her if she thought an explanation of the differences should be made on each breeder that breeds for them's website. She said that would be good.

I must say that I'm a bit disappointed that some of the breeders wouldn't be willing to update their databases to change their mosaic terminology if the community is requesting it. I didn't start this thread thinking it would draw as much attention as it did, but in seeing everyone's varying responses, it really does seem to me like there is a lot of confusion with using the word "platinum" in two different ways. I have people PMing me about it & I'm feeling a bit helpless being new to gliders and only having 2 breeding colonies. It's sounding to me that overall, some people are confused by the duplicate meanings of "platinum", some think it's obvious, and some understand the difference but also understand how it could be confusing. Out of those who understand the difference, most sound like they'd be ok with using other terminology for the mosaics to describe the color, but most don't really want to take the time to change their databases.

I really like the idea of (with the mosaics) using the words more descriptively. Even just saying something like "mosaic with silver/platinum coloring" would be less confusing than saying "platinum mosaic" when they're not true platinum. I also like the idea of breeders specifying their terminology on their websites. I really think it should be a combination of these two things, but if the bigger breeders aren't willing to take a few hours to make the changes in their databases, then I don't know that there's much else I can do.

I will say though that I was surprised at how much this got people talking. I think that's a real indicator that there IS a need for some change & education to be done.

Misty

I have a wfb 100% leu het here who if I had to describe his color, I would describe him as silver. He is so light in color that he doesn't look "grey". Same with my 4th gen wfb joeys. They are so light in color they "look" silver, not grey. That doesn't mean I'm going to change their color name to white face silver blonde. (the blonde coloring has to do with the shade of white they have)

I don't feel the name changes are needed simply because, if you can afford to buy a platinum or a platinum mosaic and plan to breed, then you should be doing the research into the glider's lineage in the first place. If you are buying a pet only, then color and lineage shouldn't matter (other than medical family history).

When I hear a mosaic described as a "white mosaic" I picture a mosaic, with standard markings (though very diluted) that is mostly white instead of having the "standard" grey colors.

Platinum mosaic...a glider that is white-ish with random markings or none really at all but with grey hairs throughout the fur.

When I think of Platinum gliders, I think of gliders with standard markings that are in the really light silver/platinum coloring from the "platinum" family lines.

Teresa,

I wouldn't suggest you call your WFBs "white face silver blonde". But is it that far-fetched to say you'd call them "WFB with silver coloring"? In this scenario, you're not using "silver" or "platinum" as part of the genetics, but rather to describe the shade/color of the glider. And that's what several people are suggesting should happen with the mosaics. "Mosaic" or "White mosaic" is more in reference to the genetics, so in using descriptive terminology, you'd call them something like "platinum-colored mosaic", "silver-colored mosaic", "mosaic with silver coloring", or something like that. It doesn't even have to be a standard terminology that's used or a choice between using "platinum" or "silver". It's just more about how it's delivered (as part of the genetics or as part of the description), if that makes sense. I know that in other cases, the color pops up in describing the genetics, but in this particular case, since "platinum" IS commonly known as a genetic trait that people breed for, it's confusing to categorize a non-platinum glider as platinum. I think the WFB is a good example, so thanks for bringing that up. You wouldn't call your WFB a "platinum WFB". Most would probably agree that calling them "platinum WFB" would be misleading. You'd be more-likely to call them "WFB with silver (or platinum) coloring". On the same token, shouldn't the mosaics be handled the same way?

I'm not trying to create an argument. I'm just trying to express the opinions I'm hearing from others & getting via PM. I think this is definitely something worth discussing & I welcome all of your opinions. I think my original questions have been somewhat answered, but I'm up for continuing the debate on the confusion of platinum currently having 2 meanings.

Misty

I TOTALLY AGREE with Misty--My thoughts exactly.

All great things start with change somewhere and when the community is asking then you know it is a real indicator that there IS a need for some change & education to be done.

Hope more people in the community will speak up and move toward change.

Misty, have you asked Priscilla to do this? There are only two databases and Priscilla's is kept current.

Bec and Sheila might want to shoot me (maybe sunday Bec!) but since Pricilla isn't willing to change (nor most other breeders of the Platinum Mosaics, which I don't blame them)... but maybe you two should change the name of the Platinums you guys have. I'm not up to date on who has what colored gliders but my last knowledge was that Bec and Sheila were the only 2 with real platinums. I know others of gliders from Platinum lines, so they also would have to know the name change.

Or just leave it the way it is and hopefully people will learn and ask questions and know what they are getting into before they breed these two colors.

I have actually talked with a person who has a platinum mosaic who thinks that since it has the "name" platinum in it that it will make a Haley baby! While I would like to think those who do have the money to buy these expensive gliders would know the difference I was shocked when this person told me that because I know they are two different genes. I tried to explain in my limited knowledge of genes that they are two different things but the person still thought they can get a platinum out of her platinum mosiac. This was a few months ago and the person might have learned more since.

We've actually been discussing a name change for the True Platinums... but as of yet, haven't come to an agreement. lol

We thought we might go with "Pearls", but came to discover that what that signifies, is actually our "Mosaic". So we want to try and stay as close to other established breeds of animals and the genetic names that have been given. Platinum is what our true Platinum's would be considered. But with the word already being used so widespread for the Platinum Mosaics... well, it would be easiest for us to rename the true platinums.

We might just have to stick to the "True Platinum" reference when talking about a true platinum. But you're right, Elisabeth... That will leave the newbies still confused when they come across the platinum mosaic.

When purchasing a glider... a newbie needs to do some research. It is also the responsibility of the "breeder" that they educate their client as to the genetics if that client is wanting to replicate a certain color. This may mean the breeder may have to refer the client to another breeder who is breeding for that color.

I do not understand the problem here... as it seems like a no brainer when one is talking about a Platinum Mosaic or Platinum. They are two different varriations with the names meaning two different things.

I agree Judy. I don't think anything needs to be changed.

I know that it seems like a no-brainer to some of you who've been into sugar gliders for a long time, but I'm hearing that it's really confusing to the newbies.

In the case of the person Elisabeth was talking about, she really believes her platinum mosaic can create a Haley baby. We know that it's possible for a colored glider to pop up unexpectedly from a pairing, not realizing that a glider 10 generations ago in the parents' lineage was carrying the gene. So if this lady thought "Wow, that's so cool that platinum just showed up in this line of mosaics" and had no idea that the word "platinum" might be used differently, then she wouldn't have known to ask the breeder otherwise & the breeder wouldn't have known to educate her. That poor lady is might be left feeling like she was falsely advertised to.

Just to play Devil's advocate a little... What would we do if someone started breeding true platinums with the mosaic lines, eventually leading to true platinum mosaics? Wouldn't having "true platinum mosaics" and "platinum mosaics" be even more confusing? It's not that far-fetched that this could start happening within the next few years. What will we do then?

I think for the sake of MY customers, if I end up with a platinum mosaic, I will be calling it a mosaic with silver or platinum coloring. I don't want to be responsible for unknowingly misinforming someone. White mosaics tend to have white faces, right? Does that mean we should call them white-faced mosaics? No. It would be confusing & misleading.

I'm really not trying to argue. I think this is a good debate that we have going. And I just want to make a case for the people who don't know any better & don't know there's a difference in the way platinum is being used. I don't think we should just say they should know better & leave it at that. Yes I agree people buying colored gliders should get educated about it, which is exactly why I started this topic in the first place...because I wanted to make sure I was understanding it all correctly. And since I started it, I've heard more & more people saying they're confused about it too. So like I said, I'm going to respond by changing how I word the mosaic descriptions for the sake of my customers & not wanting to confuse or mislead them. I can't make anyone else do it too, but I do hope you'll all consider it.

EDIT: Sheila, I haven't talked to Priscilla at all. I've been really busy this last week & 1/2.

Misty

Misty, I think people are too attached to the word "Platinum" LOL

I can understand not wanting to change the name of Platinum Mosaic because there are so many of them already out there.

I agree that it would be a ton easier to give a new name to the true Platinums... so they have a name all their own, which the unique and beautiful gene deserves.

I'm working on it. I know it would fix the confusion between the 2 very different genes.

Well, I have been hanging back and just reading but I figured I would put my two cents worth in.

I have to admit I am in the catagory of not knowing that a platinum mosaic wasn't actually from platinum lines. I kind of figured it out somewhat when I was looking at lineages, but until I actually read this topic I was still very confused. I have to say thank you to Misty for asking the questions so that others can understand better.

I think it would be helpful to maybe find different terminology for mosaics just so other people aren't confused. You can still do your research and be confused by an issue, I was. Even if you added a description for your glider that it has platinum coloring but NOT from platinum lines, might help if you don't want to go through and change all your lineages. If, like Misty said, glider people start pairing true platinum gliders w/mosaics, what WOULD you call their joeys? That would just add a whole new element of confusion for people starting out.

I do have to say that this topic has been a very good learning experience for me.

Lindsay

But there are wf mosaics. Duffy is a mosaic but does NOT have a white face. He is paired with Jewel, a 3rd gen wfb. Their first joey, Raider is a wf mosaic. If he is paired with a standard grey, there is a chance they could produce a wf grey joey. Not a mosaic, just a 1st gen wf.

Their second joey is a wfb. Not a mosaic.

It is also posible that Duffy and Jewel to have just a standard grey joey. Not a white face or a mosaic. It is also posible for them to have a white mosaic or a platinum mosaic.(Duffy's sister has). That's part of the excitement with the mosaics. The mosaic gene is just so random. But no, they would NOT have a Platinum glider. That is another color variation all together.

So, there is reason to say a white mosaic is or is not a wf. For example...there are WF Leus. It is not known that the glider is a wf unless it is paired with a non white face and produces a wf joey (which would also be a leu het) because the wf is hidden under the leu. (or blended into it)

What I'm seeing from all this thread is more reason that "newbies" should not be trying to become breeders unless/until they understand the genetics involved with breeding. This is a matter of education, not so much what one glider color is called or not called. That education is the responsiblity of both the buyer and the seller of the gliders.

Too often I see people, usually "newbies" get gliders and then say..."I have X glider and Y glider. What color joeys might I get from them" This is a question they should already know the answer to BEFORE they become "breeders".

I am on Judy's side. I don't think anything needs to be done. Any name changes would be TOO confusing I believe and just cause to much of a mess.

I would say that people relatively new to gliders may have more issues with the color variation and actual gene platinum. There are, however, other people on here who aren't new to gliders who are confused as well, to an extent.

Genes, lineages, and dominant/recessive stuff CAN be very confusing to ANYONE, IMHO.

If Misty is getting several PMs from others about this, then I would think everyone would be willing to rationally discuss options of change, whether or not a change is made.

I can see your point, Theresa, that newer people need to do more research and ask their questions ahead of time. Sometimes it is hard when you ask a question that EVERYONE around you seems to know the answer to but you. It makes you feel ignorant. Maybe, like was mentioned above, there needs to be a sticky explaining the differences. I have read about the genes on the recommended website, but I still had questions but didn't want to ask them since I would feel stupid by people around me, or get directed back to the websites I've already been to. That is just my opinion, for what it is worth. I know I'm new to THIS site, but I have been researching gliders and have known about them for years.

Lindsay

Shiela has platinum hets with mosaic. I guess we will have to wait to hear what she has to say about it. I remember she had a mosaic/possible platinum joey for sale recently. I do not think that a glier could be mosaic and platinum at the same time tho, just plat or mosaic plat het. As we combine different genes together things can get confusing, but that is how we learn more about sugar glider genetics.

I have a white mosaic that appears to be WF, but she could not be, since neither parent is a wf. I just call her a White Mosaic.

I don't really think we need to change the names, I think that before breeding a colored glider a person should have a sound understanding of color genetics. Look at lineage, talk to the breeder about what you are hoping to produce. The breeders are willing to explain things and people need to do their own research as well. It is surprising to me that a someone would spend thousands on a glider to breed without understanding the color variations fully, not to mention their lack of general experience.

Mosaic is a gene, platinum is a different gene. Since mosaics can all look so different we have to describe them. Some of the terms we use not only decribe the color of the mosaic, but also the genetics. So calling them champagne colored for example is not appropriate, because the camagne color is expressed because the glider has the gene, at the same time as it expresses the mosaic gene.

It is funny to see this topic b/c when I brought my little mosaics to the vet I told him the one was a white mosaic. He asked what I called the one with the markings, and I said well she is just mosaic, or a wf ringtail mosaic since that describes her color. She has the typical mosaic color pattern, white hands, white feet and tail, large collar. He said I should name her color Silver Mosaic, lol.

Why would changing the true Platinum name to something all it's own, be too confusing? I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to this? I do understand why they'd be opposed to re-naming the plat mosaics.. because there are so many out there already. But with the true plats, there are only a couple handfulls, and would be easy to change in databases... AND in people's thinking. Something new would catch on quickly, especially if the breeders WITH the platinums start referring to them as whatever the new name is.

Lindsay, I would hope that nobody has to feel stupid about asking questions about the different genetics.

Fact remains that because we have 2 totally different breeds being called virtually the same name, it IS confusing.

What is so difficult about making a minor change to help out in glider genetics and understanding for years and years to come?

I don't think it would be confusing once it caught on. Its just a matter of people being open and willing to change. That is the hard part.



Ah, sometimes I feel like I should just know this and shouldn't have to ask, especially with what I have read. I see it on here all the time, new people posting and saying stuff such as I know this is probably a dumb/stupid question but... Sometimes, whether they mean to or not, people can make you feel stupid by what they say or how they say it or even with things they have said in other topics that may relate to yours.

Lindsay

I agree Teresa that people should know before hand and should be educated. But unfortunately some don't. We all were newbies at one time or another. So I can see how they can be confused. I also see the name not being a problem with those that know (thats easy to say... we all know difference!).

So i agree and disagree that the names should/shouldn't be changed. I like Sheilas idea of all breeders who breed for the mosaics should have something on their website stating what the platinum, white or other colored mosaics mean. That will help in some degree if the "true platinums" name stays the same.

I don't see how name changing the "true platinums" would be confusing and a big mess since there are so few of them. I do see how it would be to change the platinum mosiacs... that would be a big mess and very confusing since there are SOOO many.

Just adding "true" to the platinums might be all you need to do. To me that says there is a difference between platinum mosaic and the real platinum gene. I think if I were new it would cause me to ask why the "true" is there and why it isn't there for the mosaics.

Anyway what ever is decided will eventually be accepted (still might be confusing to some like colors in general are). It kind of reminds me of when we all found out that there is no such thing as a wf "het". It took a year or so before you stopped see wf hets for sale and even still you might find those that aren't part of a glider community refer to their gray glider as a wf het but its very random.

Wow, I can't believe how much attention this topic has gotten.



I had been thinking it would make more sense to change the mosaic name but if there's some consensus that it would be better to take the easier route & change the true platinums' name, that might be ok too. What are you working on?



I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I know that a mosaic can be a WF mosaic. The example I was using is if you called a white mosaic a WF white mosaic, using WF as a descriptive word instead of a genetic term. I was just saying that my white mosaic has a white face, but you won't see me calling him a WF white mosaic. It would confuse people since WF is also used as a term to imply a color gene.

I agree people should do their research BEFORE breeding. And I hope that I'm not being lumped into that category. In my defense, I did ask lots of questions before getting my gliders and I feel that I have a very good understanding of the color genes and of what the odds are for different color genes showing up in their joeys. That being said, I started this post to confirm the explanation I was given about how the word "platinum" is being used and see if others found that confusing as well. Also to make sure that when I do have joeys, I am labeling the color descriptions properly according to the general standard (i.e. at what point a mosaic is considered a white mosaic or a platinum mosaic).


I agree with this. IF we're seeing the terminology is confusing people, why would we resist change simply for the sake of saving ourselves a little time? Shouldn't we do whatever we think is best for the glider community?

Lindsay please don't feel scared to ask questions. I think you'll find you're not the only one looking for answers & that not everyone always agrees on things. I had a color argument recently with some people I consider to be very knowledgeable. They were trying to tell me that a leu het who's dark in color couldn't be a leu het. I was trying to explain to them that the color has nothing to do with it - a leu het is a leu het. They're all just some shade of normal. If it's a 100% leu het, it DOES carry the leu gene. If it's a 66% leu het, there's a 66% chance it carries the leu gene, regardless of the color. They even went so far as to tell me that my 100% leu het pair was probably too dark to make a leu joey and that I should have them looked at to find out if they were light enough. That's a whole different topic but my point is, even the experts don't seem to fully understand how genetics work & are giving out wrong information at times. Our job as responsible glider owners, Lindsay, is to ask our questions, do our research, & seek the truth & do right by our gliders. Even just joining the forum & digging around in the topics is a GREAT start.



Yes, I can see how those of you who were around when the platinum mosaics & platinums first got their names don't find it confusing. Being around when something is defined makes it a lot easier. For the rest of us (even those of us who aren't completely new but just haven't been around quite as long), using the same word in two different places is confusing. I agree whatever is decided will be accepted & become the norm over time (if a change is made). I also agree that it might be ok to just start calling the platinums "true platinum" & that might clear up the majority of the confusion....not as much as if one of the names is changed all together, but it'd be better than doing nothing, in my opinion.

Misty

Thanks Misty. I'm sure you, of all people, know how many questions I DO ask, lol. I also love this site because I can ask a question and, hopefully, get several different inputs on how someone may do this or that and what not. I enjoy having options and hearing everyone's opinions.

Lindsay

Misty its like reading my mind out loud. lol

Once again TOTALLY AGREE with Misty

IF we're seeing the terminology is confusing people, why would we resist change simply for the sake of saving ourselves a little time? Shouldn't we do whatever we think is best for the glider community?

I like Elisabeths idea the best...lets just call them TRUE platinums.

I am changing my opinion on this based on something that has happened recently - like yesterday. I will post in a min. Just so no one is guessing, I think the platinum mosaic should be changed. I will explain in a min.

We already do call them TRUE platinums. Doesn't fix the confusion. If we have to ask.. "A platinum mosaic? Or a true Platinum?" there is confusion.

Can't wait to hear what you have to say, Sheila. I know you're pretty invested into these color variations. Don't leave us hanging!

Misty

When I named Haley 5 years ago there was only one published platinum mosaic at that time and that was Shadow. He had not produced any joeys and therefore felt that it was ok to call her that color because that is what color she was. At that time I didn't know what kind of gene it was and determined that it was a recessive gene after new discoveries were made. Every joey from her line has looked different, but each joey was born a platinum and didn't turn into one after coloring up. You could definately tell they were a platinum glider when born.
The platinum gene gets diluted and varies in color. Mine range from a very white color like Haley and Comet, to a very diluted color like Tristen. I like the name Platinum and would like to keep it that name, but don't want to confuse anyone. No breeders want to confuse or mislead any one so we are trying to work together to make it less confusing. Two nights ago after talking to Priscilla (we did not discuss this topic at that time), she made a comment that I had not entered my gliders into her database. I know that many of my gliders are there, but not all the information is completely accurate or is there. I use to have a database but it is broken and I can't fix it, but I still have all the original files and lineages to it. I had made the decision that there was no way that all the files on her database could be changed from platinum mosaic to something else. Last night I started to add my first entry and encountered a couple of my bumbling inadequacies and called Priscilla. She sent me all the files on the data base of gliders I owned or was the breeder of and believe you me, I am still working through them making sure the are all correct. I did find a few errors, but overall, things looked pretty good. I did a search for platinum and realized there was only about 26 entries for it. That really surprised me because I thought there would be so many entries to change if the name "platinum mosaic" was changed. I realized today, Hey there are only about 20 that need to be changed and that is far less than I thought. I called Priscilla this afternoon and we discussed about the possibility of changing the name from Platinum Mosaics to Platinum Colored Mosaics. Neither Priscilla nor myself want anyone to be mislead as to what they are getting in a glider. Priscilla agreed that calling it Platinum Colored gliders was a good idea. Only the "true platinums" will be called "Platinums" and the rest will be called Platinum colored mosaic, champagned colored mosaic ... This goes the same for Platinum. There are some platinums that have more of a champagne coloring or strawberry blonde, thence the glider will be a champagne colored platinum glider. She and I are going to put descriptions on our website as to the explanation of a platinum glider.

Now I don't want to confuse anyone and a statement was made that may not be true, but a glider may be a mosaic and a platinum with two different genes. Because one is a dominate (mosaic) gene and one is a recessive, it is possible for a glider to carry both colors. I did not breed this on purpose, but realized it later that it could be a possibility. I am not certain yet, but my Caspian might be one of those gliders. If Caspian is not a platinum and a mosaic, he might just carry the platinum gene and be a mosaic. I say this because he had a joey that looked like a platinum at birth. He has two possible platinum genes in his pedigree.

Now everyone will have to wait patiently. Priscilla owns her database, but the person who worked on it, does not do so any longer. She will have to turn it over to someone (programmer) who can make the change for her. In the meantime she will hand change all the old ones, but the new ones will still say platinum mosaic until she gets it fixed.

Thank you Priscilla!

I hope everyone is satisfied with this change. Also we are going to distinquish between the two platinum lines by calling the FFR line "SilverBelle Platinum Line" and "Haley's Platinum Line"

Hopefully we can get the admins of this website to add a new color area "Platinums"

I hope this settles everything and there is no more confusion.

wow I didn't know there were so few platinum colored mosaics.

and WOW that this got solved so quickly! Thank you Sheila and Priscilla. I think it will help a lot